Just Hands Racing Foundation

Torsten Gross - Founder for Just Hands Racing Foundation

OUR MISSION: GET HAND CONTROL DRIVERS ON A TRACK

Contact: Torsten Gross at torstenfgross@gmail.com | N/A | Visit Online!

          

• Let’s talk about each of your accidents, and how it changed your lives. 
• While these accidents changed your lives, it didn’t stop any of you from pursuing speed and physical activities. What kinds of hobbies have you both been able to maintain over the years?
• What drove you to motorsports? What was your path like?
• Let’s talk about the different kinds of hand controls and vehicle setups and the lack of standardization and all the modifications to consider (locking down legs, fire suppression, entry/exit, seats)
• Motorsports with hand controls, the challenges (passing signals)
• The Just Hands Racing Foundation, what is it about, services it provides, who qualifies to drive. How have drivers reacted to the experience? 
• What does Just Hands Foundation look like in 1-5 years? 
• How can we help? – Are there ways that the able bodied community can work with, contribute, share in the JHR experience?

and much, much more!

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Gran Touring Motor Sports Podcast Break Fix, where we’re always fixing the break into something motor sports.

Few, if any, sports give people with disabilities the opportunity to compete with the rest of the world. Yes, we’ve seen skiers, marathoners, basketball players, and a myriad of others, but unfortunately for these athletes, they are held to a small group that they can compete against. And in our world of arrive and drive track days in racing schools, the overwhelming majority is just standard pedal cars.

That being said, the just Hands Racing Foundation was developed to give anyone who uses hand controls to drive, usually people in wheelchairs, the opportunity to get on track with an instructor. And joining us tonight is Toten Gross, one of the founders of the Just Hands Racing Foundation, who is a C six quadriplegic, along with G tmr Matteo Fontana, a C six C seven quadriplegic, who many of you have seen at the track racing, his [00:01:00] hand controlled Audi TT 3.2 Quattro, as well as special guest Tim Harrell, GT four B M BMW driver from Fast Track Racing, part of the S R O GT America Series to discuss the world of racing from their unique seating positions.

So welcome to Break Fix gentlemen. So let’s go around the horn and talk about how you all got into the situation you’re in. Let’s talk about your accidents and how it changed your lives. Go ahead, Tim. I was heard in a car accident when I was, uh, 21 happened in my home, like up near Pennsylvania where I’m originally from.

Single car accident happened on the street, long story short, I guess, where they were doing construction on the road weeks before they were rep paving and all that. And that night when I was coming home from, I wanted to go out and visit my dad. And then when I was coming back to go live with my mom, cause I lived, was living with her at the time, so I was going back to my mom’s house.

There were no more construction trucks or anything. And I had like this car that I love. It was my first car that I bought with my own money. It was like a 2010, um, Hyundai Genesis [00:02:00] Coop, the track model. It was like for $30,000, it was like 300 horsepower and it was like perfect. I had that car and I loved that car and I was coming home from the store that night with it.

Just wanted to be out and drive the car. Having it was a nice night and. I saw no more construction workers or anything. I wanted to have a little bit of fun with it and little that I know they weren’t completely finished. They were, and there were no signs in a certain area. I ran over a spot in the road where they were still doing construction and they lost control of the car.

Long story short, like this is where and put me in in a wheelchair. What’s your injury level? My injury L is like an L one. Like a lot lower than yours for sure. I was, I guess, blessed in that sense, like that it wasn’t, a complete injury isn’t incomplete and it, it took me like a long while. Like I think it was six months before like I could really start to regain like movement back, any kind of movement back to get me to where I am today, primarily as a wheelchair.

And then I also can use like a walker to walk just for shorter distances. Well, I’m beyond blessed that I was able to get back what I did get. So if we walk back in time, [00:03:00] Torsten is the next one. And then Mateo will go After July 11th, 1994, I went to The Bahamas, dove in the ocean where it was only three feet deep, but because the water was so crystal clear, the sun beat down on the ocean and magnified, it looked about seven feet deep.

So I did a deep water dive instead of shallow water. Dive, broke my neck, 36 pieces drowned and was dead for clinically for two and a half minutes. Resuscitated under, uh, semicircle of onlookers. And I was brought back to life and I could see them pinching, going up to my shoulders saying, do you feel this?

Do you feel this? And I smiled and I go, I’m not getting up from this one, am I? That was the minute I think everyone knew I would’ve a sense of humor about it. You asked Eric, you know, how has it changed my life? I’ll say that. Uh, it’s gonna sound weird, but it’s the best thing that could have ever happened to me.

I personally don’t feel the need to have to walk. I have a great wife, great life. I get to race cars, I get to do a lot of other sports. The only things I can’t do is walk up a curb. I get a lot of kind of the same faces when I talk about my accident. I’m like, well, it’s actually not that bad. Yeah, we all go through some struggles, but for [00:04:00] me, there was, I know was a, a hurdle in the road.

Now I can’t do hurdles anymore, but yeah, it is what it is and that, that was my accident. Mine happened in 1981. Right after high school graduation. I went to the beach, ocean City, Maryland. It was early in the morning. Big wave was coming and I said, I’m gonna dive through it. I dove through it. When I got under, it was gonna come out the other end, like you see a bunch of people do that at the beach.

The timing was a little off and the wave hit me in the back of the head, snapped my neck, changed the angle of where I was diving. Then I hit the bottom and it snapped again. From then on, it was a c6, C7 injury and I was paralyzed from the neck down, almost drowned. A friend of mine pulled me out. But it was, after a while, I was getting kicked around by the waves and I couldn’t do anything.

I mean, I was trying to tread water and the more I moved my arms, the less movement I got. I was losing all my arm movement [00:05:00] when I got on the beach similar to you, Torsten, I couldn’t feel anything. I could move my shoulders, but I felt like I had been run over by a Mack truck. I couldn’t breathe like spitting out water all that Fast forward, I got a experimental surgery done.

Once they stabilized me for about three weeks, they moved me to Washington, DC to Georgetown, and I had a experimental surgery. That actually kind of worked. Didn’t work right away, but I started to get some feeling back. That was the first thing that was coming back gradually, and then after that, the first thing I moved six months later was my big toes.

Everybody was jumping up and down for that because they were saying that there was a connection from here all the way down to your feet, which is important. I think it took me about two years before I came home. I did a lot of physical therapy. I was able to walk a little bit by the time I got home, but I did the rest of it by myself and I was [00:06:00] determined.

I said, you know, I got this far. I think I can get more out of it. I gave up school for another two years, did eight hours of therapy a day, and then I ended up walking with one can. And that’s when the door started opening up and ideas kept coming back into my head about things I used to do before like racing and auto crossing and all those things.

But then later in life, I guess age takes its toll on a spinal cord injury and it kind of comes back. A little bit to haunt you. I used to use the wheelchair for long distance. Now I use it more. I walk with crutches now, short distances, similar to to Tim, and I use the wheelchair a lot more than I wanted to, but it’s okay.

It is what it is. I can still do a lot of things that I want to do, so life goes on. I think that’s what we’re here to talk about, that life goes on and you still get to do the things that we love to do if you really put your mind to it and make it happen, and. A perfect [00:07:00] segue, Matt Mateo. While these accidents did in fact change your lives, it didn’t stop any of you from pursuing speed or physical activities.

So let’s talk about some of the other hobbies that you’ve been able to maintain over the years and, and things you’ve been able to do. So we’ll start with Torsten there. I think there’s some things that would shock people. I know he said, I’m gonna keep living life the way I would’ve if I didn’t have my accent.

That’s being an athlete. So I’ve done things like 12 marathons in 12 months. I skydive, I ski, and I’m also the world’s only quadriplegic that is a rescue scuba diver. Now I started tracking cars. To me, anything that tests my life insurance policy is something that I want to do to my wife chagrin. I definitely like adrenaline sports.

No question about it. I’ve learned from my accident that life is so fragile and life can change in a matter of a second. If you have anything that you want to do or pursue in life, then you would really should take advantage of that and go for it full steam ahead. I tried to go to the gym as much as I always could, like just before the [00:08:00] accident, cuz I, I live in the gym and that’s where I’m happy at.

Also spending time with my dog, Mac, just living in an active lifestyle as possible, like on skydiving as. I don’t feel like because you got hurt and because you got kind of humbled in a way and and shown that you weren’t invincible because I guess that’s how I felt when I was younger. When I got hurt, I like got hurt When I was 21, I kind of felt like I was invincible at the time.

Like nothing could hurt me, nothing, anything. And then I got like a really humbling experience happened to me that taught me the life is fragile, but also at the same time, if you have something that passion that you really love or something that you really wanna do, you should definitely push to the limits to.

Mateo, if you say you did skydiving as well. I’m at a loss. I’m not brave enough to do that, to have somebody kick me out the side of a plane. So if we fall down, we break our legs. Doesn’t really matter to us. So you know, like, well actually, you know, after these two guys talked about their stuff, I don’t know, I’m, I didn’t skydive.

I may, but it’s not too late. Right. Maybe I’ll have you tourist and [00:09:00] take me out. You don’t have to do much. You just have to scream on the way down. I may have to put on my plastic underwear too. But anyway. But you did go autocrossing though. You did go into Motorsport and you drove a manual transmission vehicle.

I mean, that’s pretty surprising as well. I was told I would never drive again. You know, I remember getting in my car and it was a stick. I told my dad, don’t get rid. Keep it in the garage, you know? I just kept getting in it and trying and trying and trying. One day my dad said, you know, we should take it out in a parking lot.

You should just try and drive it. I really thought I could and I did and then I went and took some tests also cuz I didn’t want to be a danger out on the road, but I was able to drive again, stick and autocross stick later in life I moved to hand controls as well. Cause like I was saying, the aging process takes over.

I always enjoyed swimming. I didn’t get into any marathons. I always would swim laps. That was really good [00:10:00] for my back, my upper body as well as my lower body. I would be able to kick with my legs some, but they would get tired, but then my upper body would take over. I did scuba dive and I did learn how to do that in Hawaii with my wife.

I did a lot of traveling before having my daughter. We just went everywhere and did a lot of stuff that I thought I’d never do, like climbing into a gondola, the seas moving and trying to get on this thing, and, and I did that. We went from a big boat onto a small boat in the middle of the ocean in, in the island of Capri to go see the blue grotto.

And I had a bunch of Italians look at me like, you’re crazy. You’re barely walking and you. Go from one boat to the other in the middle of the ocean. All they did was put ’em up side by side, but there was like a 12 inch to maybe two foot gap between the two boats with my two canes trying to get across it.

And my wife was picturing me with one leg on one boat and one leg on the other. But it didn’t happen. It, it all [00:11:00] worked out. I just try to always enjoy life to its. Not let this accident stop me, that’s for sure. So now we’re gonna talk a little bit more about everybody’s motor sports background. Mateo was heavily influenced by my father, who is a nationally recognized fur, solo autocrosser, et cetera, and influenced by the family to get into motorsports.

I’ve spent countless hours talking to Mateo, and he’s being modest tonight. He is a petrol head through and through. I mean, he has loved cars from an early age, so I’m just gonna kinda leave it there, but I wanna talk to Torson and Tim about what got you guys into motorsports and what drove you, pun intended into motorsports.

Definitely was like a couple of years after my accident, having to like learn life all over again. At the time I was a, uh, electrician, working for my family. I had hopes maybe of going to the Marines or something like that. Obviously, when the accident happened, everything I knew about life had changed and I had to go about it and, and do things differently.

My love for cars, like I said, was always there before [00:12:00] that, the Genesis Cube that I got, and it just was something that I didn’t know that I could incorporate more into my life. After my accident, but I learned that I could get more out of it than just owning a car or something per se. And cause I love the speed obviously, and it got me in trouble some ways and a part of it may have got me.

No, it did. I can be honest. It got me to where I am now today. A lot of like what got me into racing is cuz it helped me find my competitive edge again. Something I lost when I got hurt cuz I played baseball, I used to run a lot when I got hurt, like a lot of those things obviously gone. I couldn’t do any of them anyway so I was just talking with people that would just help kind of put me in the right direction.

And it was actually the therapist that was at McGee was, I went down the center of city Philadelphia and that’s where I was from my rehab. She had said like, well what, what drives you in life? What makes you happy? And I love cars. Like I love that. And she’s like, well what can you do with cars? Like, and I didn’t really know at the time, but I looked more into it and joined like the Porsche club.

And first I just doing de events, [00:13:00] meeting different people within there and like the red are black students who I thought were like the best in the world. When I was a green student, just to see like that I could still do this and enjoy it, like just to see where I could go with it. And then from there I went into Chin Motorsports, like just track days.

And I met the late Jim Pace, who’s the real one, who really, I can credit a lot of, who really got me into racing. I had a GT three at the time. Was driving that car on track days and he is like the speed this thing’s going. It’s just, it’s not safe and the way you’re doing is that you need a proper race car.

You should getting into racing and learning more about that and that’s really what got me into racing, that I could be as competitive as I wanted to be. Cause I was like, I set a very competitive person. So it kind of helped me find that, again, the competitive edge. When I’m out there and I’m racing other people, no one really knows I’m hurt or no one really knows anything.

Like until they see me in Victory Lane, I’m gonna be the outlier of this group and say I’m not a gearhead. I personally still think that there are a lot of mice and gerbils that run really [00:14:00] fast in order to make my cargo go quickly. Because if you were to ask me if there’s an engine in my car, I would shrug my shoulders and say maybe because I really don’t know what’s inside of a car.

I just know that I know how to drive one. And I say that because having been pulled over 36 times before I was 30 years old, three of them going over 125 miles an hour and only getting two speeding tickets in my life. One of them being 55 and a 65 and one of them being like around 50 and a 75, and that is you pour water on your lap and say your handicapped and couldn’t find a handicapped bathroom that gets you out of a lot of tickets really quickly.

I had always loved driving fast and I was never really one though to think that I could get into motorsports, you know, having had an accent of 15. It was just not something that was in my sphere of understanding. When we moved up here, right outside of Lime Rock, my wife had given me for our Ann. A track day gift.

The funny opposite side to that is she handed me a track day gift. I handed her in return [00:15:00] motorcycle lessons. So we were kind of a perfect match for each other that we didn’t know we were giving that to each other, and that’s when we got each other for our anniversaries. That’s how I got into motorsports.

Tim, just like you, for me, all, all these sports that I’ve done in my life, and I get it, that I can say I’m the first and only in the world of doing this or did 12 marathons, 12 months. All these accolades are great, right? You know that. Sure. I get the inspiration comment all the time, which I think is bs, but whatever it is what it is.

The thing that bothered me always is that I could never compete equally with anybody. And so if we were to go skiing together, we’d never be in the same division. Not even everyone on the phone here right, or on this call would be in the same division cuz we’re all different from an injury level, from a function level and all that.

We wouldn’t be marathoning in the same division. We wouldn’t, nothing would be the same and, and most of my friends can walk, so I’d never be in the same division as them, except for exactly what Tim said. No one knows that I’m in chair when I’m on the track and I leave my chair in the paddock. It stays there until I come.[00:16:00]

And then it’s always that moment of, wait, that was you. You know? Yeah. And it’s that smile of, yes. And by the way, you paid way too much for your Ferrari. You might wanna get some racing tires on there because I’m beating you, which is always very annoying. But luckily I’m in a chair, so they will not punch me in the nose when I make a comment like that.

I’m still on my journey of understanding motor sports and understanding what’s in the car, but I’m doing everything not just for myself now, but you know, we, we’ll talk about in a minute, just hands to me, a passion isn’t something that you find and then you have to do yourself, but you have an obligation to share with others.

And so I knew that this was a passion when I realized I don’t just wanna buy a race car for myself. I need to buy another one to have other people do it too. And that was the moment I realized I might not be a gearhead, but I’m definitely into motor sports and I think it’s okay to not be both. I think it’s very intimidating in the.

To have to know everything about everything inside of the car, and I don’t think that that’s necessary. I think you need to know a [00:17:00] lot about the car building the sport and growing the sport also has to be with people like me that are not just a gear head and just want to tinker, but. Understand what great driving’s like.

That’s what just hands also teaches. But we’ll get into that in a minute. Now I know I put a pin in Mateo and I did that on purpose because there was a hiatus between when he was auto crossing and then now that he’s doing track events, and I think I’m partially to blame for bringing him to the track.

And I will say this, I took him for a ride in, I don’t remember which car it was one of them, and I said to you, you’re either gonna love this or you’re gonna hate it. That was, I think that was all I said, and then we went out on track. You’ll love it. Why? And what really brought you to the track? Let me drop back.

I think what drove me to it is I left something out of my story at the beginning, before the accident happened. I was always a car guy, a petrol head. On the weekend I used to pull the engine from my car, rebuild it, put it back together and have it [00:18:00] back in there, race and do all that fun stuff. What I remember is that, yes, I was gonna go to college.

But my overall goal was always to have my own, an auto shop that would build race cars for people. So the love of race cars was always in me from a young age. I used to live in Italy in a city called Moderna. We lived very close to the Ferrari factory, so I used to hear it while I was playing with my little matchbox cars on the balcony.

I could hear them testing the Ferrari on the racetrack, and then later on I would watch rally racing and go to the rally races. Got the juices flowing in me from a young age. So then after my accident, once I got better, I was never completely better. I started working on my cars again, modifying them. A car was never mine until I put my own signature on it.

And then together with Eric’s dad, we used to do that [00:19:00] on the weekends all the time, cuz we had to work on during the week. But on the weekends we’d get together and say, oh, I. Got a new set of shocks, let’s put ’em in, I’ll come over, you know, whatever. He got me into auto crossing and then, I don’t know, I think I let the work take over and life took over and I shouldn’t have been too busy, but I was too busy and just stopped racing and I never should have.

But Eric’s the one who got me into it. I sat in his car and he took me around the track. He kept bugging me, you need to come out to the track. You need to come back out to the track. I finally went one day and he was out there, went for a ride in his car. Of course, when I got back, you know, my wife was waiting for me.

My smile was probably all the way up to my ears. Cause you know, the adrenaline Eric got me going and, and then I was like, I gotta do this. I gotta do this. After that, it was history. I got back into it and Eric got me going and then he kept saying, are you gonna come to this event? Are [00:20:00] you gonna come to this event?

I better see you out there. It’s only an hour from your house. You don’t have any excuses. Now I’m here. Now I’m in. I’ll probably stop when I’m. Maybe. I think the best part of that was he shows up at his first de at a station wagon and the next one, the conversations between that event and the next one were, I’m buying another car.

We’re buying another car for the track. I gotta find a track car. And then he settles on the Audi tt, which is a great choice for you. It’s a great car altogether. But to make both of those cars viable for the track, they had to be modified. People may not know listening to this, that there are different kinds of hand controls and vehicle setups.

Each one of you probably have different variations on a theme. There’s a lack of standardizations, there’s tons of other mods to consider. I want to kind of dive into that. I want people to understand how it works. They’re probably scratching their heads going, how are you guys driving on track with just your hands?

How does this work? As we were putting together the foundation car, this was one of the biggest issues [00:21:00] that there is no standardization. There are three main ways of driving. One is you steer with your left and you give throttle and brake with your right. Another is you steer with your right, give throttle and brake with your left, and then there is a version of what’s called the Guido Simplex, where it is all integrated onto the steering wheel itself, where you push a.

You can pull a ring, but it’s all integrated into the steering wheel itself. Those are the three main versions. Now, they’re always offshoots onto all of those that are versions of each. Those are kind of three main ways of thinking about hand controls. So I’ve seen Tim’s car, and there’ll be pictures in the following article of that.

I’ve seen My Tail’s car, which is a drive by left hand, and the Guido Simplex is what Alex z Bernardi uses in the Lamont’s car. Right. Tim, you drive with steering on the hand con on the wheel itself, right? Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say like, so the, my throttle ring is kind of like a Guido simplex. It’s on the front of the wheel, but it’s like [00:22:00] Kemp.

It’s k e n p f. So I control the car with my thumbs, kind of, it’s pushing the thumbs where I can grab behind the wheel and shift with the paddles, which allows me, like, I’d never done auto cross. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it. Looks very fun. But, but the kind of racing I do like the road racing. Like you could be going around a corner at a hundred plus miles an hour and have the car like wanna step out on you.

So I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it with not both hands on the wheel. Whereas like for auto crossing, I don’t, I’d never done it, so I can’t say, but I would maybe feel comfortable driving like a drive my truck, it’s like a push pull system. So it’s like the ring around the inside of the wheel. I push towards the wheel like with my thumbs for gas, and then there’s a brake on the right hand side.

The, that’s mechanical that I push away from me for the brake. So the only time I have my hands off the wheel in theory is only when I’m coming into a breaking zone. I’ll say mine. Mine’s different than that. Mine’s called a rock throttle. It’s similar to a push pull. You push the brake and I have the hand controls on the left, hold the steering wheel with the right, it’s mounted so close because [00:23:00] the throttle comes upward.

And so I have my hand on the throttle that I pulled back to throttle and push in for the brake the way it’s. Positioned. I keep a thumb on the wheel. I can help myself hold the wheel. I make it work. I didn’t realize there were versions like you all are ex, which are obviously nicer. I feel like I’m pretty safe.

I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t safe. The way I do it works fine for me. The bad part, I mean with hand controls, you can never flag somebody by, by putting your hand out that. That doesn work, you gotta use your turn signal. That’s the only way. Not true. No, not true. So don’t say that. These are myths that bother me because these are the reasons why people start saying that people in chairs can’t do H P D E, that it’s not safe and we don’t wanna do the blinker version.

And Audi, by the way, love them because I do love the blinker version. So I did Audi, uh, n eq Yeah. Up here in the Northeast. They’re absolutely fantastic and, and [00:24:00] every other sanctioning body that I’ve been with does point bias. Fine. I’ll do a point buy and we can talk about how I do that in a minute. But what I went to Audi n EQ is really happy to see that they did blinker version like everybody in Europe does.

It’s the right thing to do, but there’s so many myths to people driving in. That we can’t do certain things, that I have had enough arguments to say that I can get on the track because I can be equal and I can do what you do and I can do it just as safely. So let me on. By all means, Torson. I wasn’t saying that I couldn’t do it.

I am doing it with the turn signal, that point, but they didn’t want that. The point by I have done as well. The problem is with the way my hand control. When I do a point by my hand controls on the left and I do a point by, I stick my hand out the window. That means I let go of the throttle, so I’m slowing down and the people behind me don’t like it cuz they don’t see me slowing down.

That’s the only thing. If I use the turn signal, it’s [00:25:00] business as usual and nobody knows anything different. But the point buys are a little bit harder with the way my hand control works. Before we talk about point buy though, Eric, I think you’re, well you’re bringing up though is a valid question about hand controls and I think Europe does it way better than we do where they have the majority of their hand controls are right throttle and brake and left drive and here it’s 70% left throttle and brake and right steering.

However, within the last three years to five years, I think it is, the majority of people are being taught, are taught now to drive with their right hand. And steer with their left, which is a fundamentally better way of driving anyway, because of lack of fatigue and how you’re positioning the car and where your face is pointing when you’re looking in the car, driving with your left hand way more efficient and you can rest your hand more, both of your arms more, and the way it positions your body, it positions it into the car versus out of the car.

In this country, [00:26:00] unfortunately, we don’t have the standardization. Now I’m one to say, if you find what you’re good at, stick with it. I, I never want to change anybody’s drive pattern before they get onto the track. For our foundation, we actually have left and right hand controls because I didn’t want anybody showing up to the track and going, oh, your left throt.

Well, you know, you’re about to go 110 miles an hour, but can you do it with your right hand first? There’s no version of that story that turns out well for anybody. We worked with the manufacturer to actually put in both so that somebody could be comfortable on the track. It was a very hard thing to do.

Now that’s not normal, right? You only usually have one or the other, whichever one you are most comfortable with. We thought to have kind of an arriving drive system that would be the right thing to do. It’s funny you mentioned Steer with the left and do the functions with the right, because that’s the same dynamic as if you were driving a manual transmission car.

Right, exactly. It’s the grip of death with the left arm as you’re changing gears and taking one arm off of the steering wheel. So to me, I think if I [00:27:00] was in your guys’ position, that would seem more natural. You’re now in an automatic and my right arm needs to do something. Let me control the throttle and the break that way and, you know, makes passing easier.

All this stuff that we’re gonna talk about, but I think we need to take this a step further and I’m gonna look to Tim to the way his B M W is built. It’s not just hand controls, it’s the rest of the modifications. So in s r o there’s some races that are longer, maybe you’re doing driver changes, you know, depending on the stint and depending on the series that you’re in and things like that.

Let’s talk about locking down your legs, about spire suppression, getting in and out of the car, especially if you have, you move up to something with a roll bar or a roll cage. How does all that work for you in the bmw? Something that the Sirius definitely wants to see before they let you out there and, and raise their number one concern with anything is safety for any driver.

They make sure you can get out of the car. Like I said, I can walk with a walker, so I do have like limited use of my lower leg. My knee down, I really can’t feel or move anything. But I still have the ability to move my legs enough to, and then use my upper body, [00:28:00] like to lift myself out of the car when you get outta the car.

If it’s an emergency, like I could just get outta the car and throw myself on the ground and push away if I had to. I don’t know if for H P D, they never asked me to get outta the car like that. I did it cuz I want to go racing and I’m doing skip bar racing school next week and all that kind of stuff.

And I got my F C C A license and awesome. I want to make sure because I’m chest down, I want to make sure I could get out. And so we put a mattress on the ground and I’ve got a roll cage, I’ve got fire suppression, I’ve got a removable steering wheel, all that kind of fun stuff. Six point harness. And I strap my legs down because you know when you’re hitting GForce going around turns one, you don’t want it to hit the steering wheel or brake.

But two, like anybody even able body, you want to be one with the car, right? You want no movement whatsoever. So I lock down my legs, but then the question becomes, well if I want to egress. That just adds another layer. I’m actually able to get out in six seconds, so I’ve now practiced it, tear my legs, like tear the Velcro, snap the six point harness, pop open the door, and I’m literally [00:29:00] throwing myself out of the car.

I mean, I’m on the ground outside of the car, but I’m out of the car that I can do in six seconds. If I were to have to push fire suppression, maybe add another second or two, but we also put in heat sensitive fire suppression versus having to pull the trigger, because my thought was if I’m ever gonna get to an accident that is, Bad enough that needs fire suppression.

There’s a good chance I’m not gonna be conscious for that. So we did it with heat sensitive fire suppression that just goes on at, I forgot what the temperature is, but it’ll just start itself. So we actually figured out the whole system because I thought if I can’t get out, why even try and go racing?

I’m gonna get stopped at some point. So let me curb my own enthusiasm as to what heights I can get. But once I got out in six seconds, I was like, I can do this right. And I’m a quad, so if I can do it, a lot of other, anyone else can do it too. For sure. I mean, like you said, being one with the car officer, like they, my team made me like a seat that’s like really like custom since I, we don’t have a lot of atrophy in my legs so I can’t really [00:30:00] sit in a normal seat and be comfortable.

So my team made me where it kind of like goes in between my legs as well and kind of keeps my legs apart and we still haven’t mastered keeping the feet stills, like you said with the G forces. Like the feet move around. I don’t want it to be dragging on the brake or something or I would never be able to tell difference.

I wouldn’t be able to feel, and obviously with way my hand controls work, it disables the gas pedal. My one foot kind of goes off to the right on the dead pedal. My other foot goes in the gas cuddle. It works that way. And we use like tape at the. If I need to get outta the car or I showed the, the marshals and like the safety officials, I can just rip my legs out or grab my legs and rip the tape and I can get out safely.

Yeah. Well, I’m happy to show you, Tim. If you want some help, I’ll have to show you what I do. It’s funny you say that. So when I got my first car, when I got my race car, it’s an E 92 M three. It’s actually a Lime Rock edition. I race at Lime Rock, so go figure. But I get the car, the first thing I do is autocross.

And they said, just so you know, race breaks are really hard. Like you just gotta jam on those things and they’re gonna jam really hard. They’re gonna stop the car really [00:31:00] fast, but gotta hit ’em hard. And I’m going, okay, I, I can do this, I can do this. So I get in the car, I’m all strapped up. I’m, I’m doing autocross.

My legs are just flying around everywhere, but I’m jamming on the brakes and I get home and my wife. Why is your right foot so swollen? And I was like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. And I looked down and we look back at the video, my right foot slid under the brake and the whole autocross, I am jamming down on the brake and the brake pedal is going directly into the arch of my foot.

And I broke it in two places. And that is the only exciting story I get to tell about me and like Auto Cross or anything track going wrong. And that’s a lesson you only learned. Or I have to learn once. But that was the moment where I realized, look, I was still able to stop. And that’s fine, but I, I don’t want to test that theory again.

But here we’re gonna now start locking down my feet. In some pictures you’ll see on my website, I have one black shoe on and one white shoe. And that’s cuz the black shoe was the, after you go to the hospital here, do this to a immobilize your leg. And my only [00:32:00] response was I did that 27 years ago. I don’t need to mobilize it anymore, but I decided to wear the boot anyway.

That’s why we strapped down our legs. I’m more than happy to show you what I’m doing and what we’re doing for different people and if you can take some tips from it, great. If not, you know. No worries. Julie, wanted to ask you for that. You know, as I am getting worse, my legs move around quite a. I don’t have the strength anymore to like hold them in place.

Even on the dead pedal, sometimes my foot will pop off of there. When you’re going around a turn, the last thing I want to do is reach down there to try to move it. You know, you need your hands to do the, the stuff that you do. Sure. So yeah, I would love to know how and where you get the stuff to kind of set that up cuz that’ll make me feel better and race better, you know, knowing that my life is secure.

No problem, Tim. I’ll tell you, you’ve got a little easier. So, and this is for people listening too, that might be in chairs. Two things, one’s kind of a mid-level and then one’s a more expensive, harder [00:33:00] level. Easy level is, I bought racing shoes and I bought O M P I think they’re called first, and they’ve got a Velcro strap that goes around the ankle.

I don’t actually close that onto my ankle because I don’t really need it, but I have a piece of Velcro that is kind of screwed down onto the diamond plate that’s on the bottom of the car. And that just touches my shoe when I get in the car cuz corner worker needs to yank me out. It’s only about two inches worth of Velcro, but it’s very strong, strong enough that the GForce S won’t rip that off.

Not strong enough so that when a corner worker tries to yank me out, that it’ll stop anything. So that’s kind of the mid-level, very easy way of doing it. The next level up though, Tim, for you, is you’re wearing a fire suit. I’m six foot five, so I’m either gonna have to find a freakishly tall fire suit, or I’m gonna have to have one custom made.

I haven’t gone down that road yet, but I’m terrified of the cost of what it’s gonna cost to make one. I want to put Velcro on the outside of my legs so that I can then [00:34:00] velcro them to different parts of the car where I know my legs are going to be. Because if you wrap. Your legs, meaning wrap them and strap them down, then it’s harder for a corner worker to pull you out.

Mm-hmm. But if you have one side of fire suit and then the other side on the car, that’s easy enough to tear off. But it’s, it’s strong enough to keep you in while you’re doing the GForce. So you might want to consider that Tim as well. Yeah. You know, putting that on there. That for sure. Yeah. Anything like for both you, I guess just the comfort’s the main thing.

Yes. And becoming one with the car for sure. So it’s definitely something that’s worth looking into. Thank you. Yeah. So being the layperson here, I had some thoughts listening to you guys, cuz my MacGyver brain is always working. To your point about the Velcro, Velcro seems to be the solution in a lot of cases here, but maybe modifying a pair of.

To have the soles have the hook part of the Velcro. And think about this in a passenger vehicle, right? H hp d you’re required to take out your floor mats and all that kind of stuff so they don’t slide around. So let’s say the bottom of [00:35:00] your shoes had the hook part. You could basically stand your foot, let’s say your, your right leg up, that would be square on the ground and maybe have some fuzzy side of the Velcro, fix the dead pedal, and then you’re hooked to the car.

Basically putting yourself in there with these special shoes that you’ve modified, like something like that. To your point, maybe more of a lower budget. Not strong enough that if somebody needs to rip you outta a car, you need to rip yourself out. Then you could make those mods. So something to think about there.

Get creative. But I think Velcro is the answer. At the end of the day. It’s shoes and its knees as well. Yeah. So your knees not moving that actually because your knees are heavier than your feet. Your knees will tend to, at least for a lot of the people I’ve seen, drive will tend to move first, which then move your feet if you can actually immobilize your knees first.

It’s different for everybody. That’s the problem. So when we have people hop in the car, it’s a 20 minute to 30 minute conversation. Kind of like when you go skiing or when you go biking or when you, quite frankly, even if you’re able bodied, when you get into a race car, you don’t just say, Hey, hop into this race car.

Good [00:36:00] luck. You adjust all the straps. You make sure that the car is ready for you. You don’t just kind of say, good luck with that. And that’s the same thing for us too, right? Tim’s gonna be different than Mateo than me, but we’re all different inside of a car. Two questions to add to this that people might be thinking as an example.

When you’re in racing, especially, let’s say you’re a rookie, they put an X on your car, so it denotes that you’re a rookie. Do they put anything special on your guys’ cars to denote that you do have a disability and to not mess? Not to say not to mess with you, but it would be the worst thing in the world to door somebody or cause a shunt and you’re like, oh crap, I put ’em in a situation that was terrible.

They could have been easily avoided getting rid of the red mist. Do they make you guys mark your cars appropriately or. I tell everybody that we are no different than anybody else on the track because if you think about, we’ve been driving on the street and we have the exact same license that anybody else does, so we get to drive just as well as anybody else does or just as badly as anybody else does.

The fact that we use hand [00:37:00] controls doesn’t make us any better or worse of a driver. It makes us a different driver. But I think why it scares people so much is because it is so foreign to them, to people that don’t do it. So because it’s different, it scares them when in reality I look at foot pedal driving, I go, that scares the living beep outta me cuz I wouldn’t know how to do that.

Hand control driving. It’s comes so naturally to me because I’ve been doing it for so long that I’m a great driver just with my hands. I would feel weird if somebody were to say, well, he’s a disabled driver. To me, it’s, um, we’re trying to normalize it. I a hundred percent understand why you would ask that question, and it, it makes sense to me.

What it is, is it’s not the disability. There needs to be a cutoff of who can or cannot drive. Once you get to the point that you’re talking about where it’s, oh, it’s a disabled driver, we should be a little more careful around that person. They shouldn’t be on the track because that means that they’re a quadriplegic that can’t use their triceps or they just don’t have certain function or their spasms are [00:38:00] too bad.

You know, it would be dangerous on the track. They shouldn’t be on the track. So no matter what, it needs to be a safety conversation first. Before anything, and I would say the same thing for somebody able bodied, if they have seizures or if they have any type of other issues that they can’t control. They shouldn’t be on the track either?

No. They just put a big X behind me. I mean, I don’t know Tim or Mateo, if they did differently for you, but I wouldn’t think they would’ve. That’s when I started out with amateur level racing. I guess just like hss, R S V R A, like push up racing, things like that. I don’t remember anything on my car. Then to be honest, when I think they put something on my car now at the professional level, it’s like a wheelchair picture and I didn’t really want it on the car.

They told me. It really wasn’t for the other drivers or anything. Like they say you’re safe enough, you’re good enough to race at this level. But it was more so to the corner workers? No. Or something. That this car has somebody, I wasn’t gonna argue. It is what it is at this point, and or it’s just like when I pass people, then at least they know they got passed by somebody that says a wheelchair.

It’s a point of pride. It’s a [00:39:00] point of pride. That is perfect. That is perfect. I don’t really want on the car, I don’t want people to know I’m in a wheelchair. But then if I’m gonna be passing on the track anyway, then like at least you’re gonna know you got passed by someone in a real track. So my second question is for all of you guys, and for all of you that have also had experience driving a pedal car before your accidents, one of the questions that comes up a lot and came up even recently before we recorded this was, what’s it like to break with your hands?

Because your feet have a certain level of feeling and finesse, right? Especially if you’re running a clutch and you know, heel, toe downshifting, all this kind of stuff that you feel the pedals and you’re doing certain things and the pressure applied and how you trail break and threshold breaking and all that.

What’s it like breaking with your hands? Do you have the same sort of response or do you get the same sort of feedback from the brakes through your hands that you would through your feet? I guess I should mention too, like I also for training for, uh, racing, I also drive like carts. My coach, William Pete’s, his name, he was hurt in a, um, carting accident in Brazil when he was like 18.[00:40:00]

Now he’s in his fifties, but he developed a whole hand control system on the wheel of a cart. So it’s kinda like a jet ski throttle on your left thumb, and then like a crotch rocket or like a street bike, master cylinder brake, like on your right hand, keeping your legs in place. For that compared to a car a lot easier.

The, the sheer fact, the more G-force, no seatbelts, nothing in a cart and just how more physically abusive it is to your body. It definitely is much harder than in the car, but it allows me to feel everything. So when, when I go to get in the car, everything’s slowed way down. All my reaction times are quickened much, much quicker.

The brake is so different and the car is a perfect car, but it’s still like the feeling aspect of it. Like I never really drove a car like at that limit, like with my feet. So it’s hard to, I guess, answer that question fully. But in the car, like I have a lot of travel, I guess with my brake. So I can get a lot of leverage on it as opposed to having just a little bit and a race car, as Torson mentioned, it’s like a heavy break and I need to match.

My teammate’s break. He’s doing it with his feet. I’m having to put like 1200 psi, 1100 psi into all the heavy [00:41:00] breaking zones on, on the track around the lap. But like the heavy breaking zones, I really have to like lay into the brake and push hard, like 1100, 1200, 1300 psi. Like the biggest thing. I struggle to like my teammate, Rafa Matos is my teammate.

It’s just being able to not initially hit the brake, the initial threshold brake, but it’s just coming off the brake and carrying as much maximum speed as the apex as possible. That’s where I lose time to him still like, I mean within like a second of him, but still to carry, like hit the brake, slow the car down immediately, like enough, just the first, but then trail off the brake while holding the hand with one wheel to carry the speed to get to the apex quicker, if that makes sense.

Whereas like our apex speeds are the same. We go back on power roughly at the same time. It’s just like that’s the base part of me where I struggles. Just like getting the car slowed down and I guess efficiently enough, we’re still carrying enough speed to the apex is something that I, I said I’ve only learned with my hands, so I guess it’s hard to say what it would be like with my feet.

I’m, I drive also in sim ERs. I, I don’t have any feeling in that break. I kind of raked it to where it’s kind of very similar to my car. That’s okay. Nobody [00:42:00] does. You’re, you’re a good company. I’ve learned car like this, wave through H bd. I’m amateur racing that professional like to feel with my hand and to feel like when I get into the A b.

S. I’ve made it work and still constantly trying to better myself. For me, I play with where the hand controls attached to the brake stem. So depending on the track that I’m at and how hard I need to break, I’ll either raise it and the higher up it goes, the faster it’s gonna break in, right? Because then you only have to push down a little bit.

The further down it goes, the more travel I have in the break. There’s a guy that helps us out. He’s worked on a lot of cars. His name is Eric Harra. He’s been helping us transform the just hands car as he should. He starts using the hand controls just for fun. He comes back after about a week and he’s like, you have more control over the break with your hands than I do with my feet.

And I was like, well, that’s interesting that you’re saying that somebody that knows a lot about cars, because it is such a subtle move with your hand, it is [00:43:00] easier than with your foot. And the third thing I’ll say is your hand eye coordination is faster than your hand foot coordination. So you have more sensitivity in your hands.

That you can use to kind of be delicate with your hand controls than you would with your feet. They’re very negligible changes or very minute changes between foot and hands. It took me a while to figure out trail breaking and, and how I can really trail break. Now I can do it. So my data is the same as anybody else’s data is like you wouldn’t be able to see mine, but I used to come off the brake way too fast, really fast, and then we lowered it down in the brake stem where it attaches.

Now you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference between me and somebody else, but it’s a very valid question. I mean, very valid. I have like a pedal box that’s also mount on the floor. So it’s not as opposed to like they guess the hanging pedals that you might have torson, right? Yes. So I really can’t move where it’s mounted on the back of the brake pedal.

I can’t move it at all. So it’s just that one. Oh, since it’s a floor mounted at pedal box. Okay. You just gave me another problem to solve. [00:44:00] So sweet. Another weekend not talking to my wife. That’s great. But well to your point, Toten, if there was some sort of thing that you could add that would work on either hanging pedals or floor pedals where you could add it to the back of the pedal and say bolted on and it would give you almost like an adjustable sway bar, you know, three or four points to mount your hand control to change the leverage point, right?

Cuz that’s what you’re doing is you’re changing that the angle to decrease or increase the leverage on the pedal, then that would work for either of these types of pedal boxes. Just that piece needs to be created. It would’ve to be like strong enough to also withstand like 1300 psi and and 1200 PSI prep.

Like lap after lap, after lap? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Like in a different story where actually hand control brake on me down in like, um, Miami Homestead Speedway, which was scary enough that brake just like, I guess it was an aluminum part, touched to the pedal and that was like from four hanging pedals, which just wanted to go to the brake.

And it, it felt like essentially like brake was just hanging and dangling. Felt like I lost my brakes in the pedal, went to the floor. It doesn’t that sense. So it’s just [00:45:00] something that, and even though my engineer, like I told ’em, wanted to race with this team, and then basically they developed as quick as they could and they made it as best because it’s not the best for me, but I’m learning and still adapting to it for them with the amount of time that they had to do it, it’s, it’s very good.

Maybe my arm could be a little longer. I wish. Make it a little easier to push the brake pile as far as I push it to. Maybe not. Fatigue is quick. We’ll talk because I’m actually chatting with BMW and with Viel and like the, the people that do my hand. And we have a, a conversation going where we can open that up for more.

I’m not gonna say r and d, that gets a little too official to have some conversations where, what can we do? You and I have different functions, so I don’t have much finger function. You have full finger function, so you are gonna have a D control than me. Let me see how I can help. I would love to help you.

Maybe it’ll help other people too. And that’s all I wanna. See it. It’s your guys’ version of Pedal Expenders. You know, we get the bigger ones to do. Heel toe, it’s, it’s the equivalent, right? So, exactly. But Matt Mateo, do you wanna chime in on what it’s like to break with your hands? Actually, I use hand controls later [00:46:00] in life.

I feel like for me it’s a lot easier. It feels easier to break with my hands. I feel like I’m more accurate. Even my response time is faster than when I used to drive with my, my legs. I feel really comfortable with the hand controls and now I’m inspired to go explore the system that Dorson and him use.

Cuz I think it will definitely be a step up in what I’m doing and I think I could be even better. Well, you should come up to the foundation. We’ll give you, well you can, you can use our E 92 and track our car. Yeah. And you can test them out. That would be, So Tim brought up something really important, 1300 pounds of pressure that he’s putting on that brake pedal to stop the car.

When you’re pushing with your legs, is it the same amount of pressure? Is that the equivalent amount that you’re able to produce by stepping on the pedal, or do you actually generate more force because more muscles are involved coming out of your shoulder, your lats, your tries, et cetera, by ramming down on that arm and pushing the brake pedal, is there really an [00:47:00] equivalent?

It’s the same brake pedal I’m pushing, like when my teammate pushes the brake pedal, the the hand control move. You can see it in our onboard video. It’s just really only like how they mount on the pedal and, and I guess it’s, it’s harder from my standpoint with the floor amount of pedals. It all depends on how long they make the bar coming towards me.

How long, I guess they make the horizontal bar. Yeah. And get me leverage, but I still have to push the pedal down as hard as him, I guess you might say. Like I have more feeling, I may have quicker reaction time with my hand because I toward him saying your hand to eye coordination’s quicker than your hand to feet.

I’m doing it with less muscles than him. He has his whole glu muscle, his whole hamstring, his whole leg, which is one of the biggest muscles in your body. I’m just doing it with my shoulder and my tricep. That’s why I go to the gym a lot, like maybe five days a week. And it’s something that the do it this level, professional level or I’m trying to be as close as I can to an indie car driver is something that I, I have to like work on like day in and day in, day out.

Like just not something I do for the track weekend thing. It’s something that like become my passion and I’m trying to push as far as I can in the envelope as far as I [00:48:00] can. So if something requires me to get a little better on the break, it’s something that I still maybe have to learn or further myself into.

Yeah, more time. And I think to expand my question, to clarify what I’m thinking is hopefully on the behalf of my listeners is, is it actually harder? Are you working more to break with your hands and your arms than you would be with your leg? Because when you drive a car to stop a car with your legs, it seems so simple.

Push the pedal, car slows down. But I don’t know how much force I’m actually exerting on the pedal. You guys are actually further back, right? There’s all the physics involved in this forces and distance and whatnot. So I’m wondering, are you actually working harder to produce the same amount of physical work?

It’s on the, the hand control and how they’re mounted. Really, that’s a hundred. Tim nailed it on the head because for me, the way my vials work, it’s kind of on a hinge. I’m breaking on a dime without really trying. I’m actually not even using my full arm. All I do is I lift my wrist and that fully breaks it versus pushing [00:49:00] full forward with my shoulder and my tricep.

And so I readjusted my drive style from road driving to track driving in order to be to finesse it more, which I have a video on YouTube for those people who wanna see that. But I’ve changed my drive style because I wanted to get more detailed with my input and not have to exert energy. Because the biggest thing I was worried about was energy exertion.

And Tim, I hear you loud and clear. When you go to the gym on the other side of this wall, you guys know what a tonal. You know, the, the workout machine that you put on the wall? Well, we got a tonal and I’m in there every single day and I’m, I’m, you know, hand cycling all the time because from a fatigue perspective, walking or not driving is, you exert a lot of energy.

Right. You know, regardless of what appendages you use. I work out a ton as well because, Tim, to your point, weekend warriors is one thing. I wanna be more than that, so I’m gonna work out to the level that I want to be. Exactly. Torsten for the gas, do you have a vacuum assist? Nope. So have you ever heard of that?

[00:50:00] Yes, I have no mine. Mine actually, and Tim, we, we don’t bypass the gas, so there are two rods that attach to the brake and the gas pedal. And when I turn gas, And push forward for break. And the reason for that was why I really like having it not bypass, uh, the pedal is one. I have a little more feedback.

Yeah. So the car is giving feedback into the gas pedal as well. So I’m feeling that in the gas when I’m turning it. You don’t get that when you do dry by wire when it just goes wired in. Yeah. So that’s why I wanted that. And number two, if something goes belly up on the track, I actually want a track worker to be able to drive my car and not have to think about flipping a switch.

So if they pull me out, what do they now do with the car? That is such an infinitesimal little example, right? Like, will that ever happen? Most likely, never, ever. But it’s the one time where I’m not thinking about it or it happens that it will happen. We never plan for things we don’t plan for. So that’s why we left it there.

Now everybody can still [00:51:00] drive my car. The foot pedals are active. Anyone can jump in and drive it and it wouldn’t be an issue for them. They actually wouldn’t know that, that it’s attached. But again, this is what fascinates me about this conversation in general about hand controls, is that there are so many different types because of so many different disabilities, so many different people that have made it for different reasons, for different cars, it makes it very difficult for a group like ours to get into this sport because we could have this conversation for the next eight hours, just the three of us talking about our hand controls going, what do you do?

Well, let me tell you what I do. Well, how can I help you? Well, you should help me doing. That becomes very difficult. It’s fascinating to me. I kind of love it. Yeah. I mean, my cars, both of my cars, they have two different types of hand controls and both of my cars can be driven normally with the feet because my wife drives my cars too.

Yep. Yeah. Mine is my wife. I wanted my hand controls to feel as natural as you would if you were driving it with your feet. You know, I don’t want any [00:52:00] delay or anything like that. That’s why I hesitated. I stuck it out as long as I could to drive with my legs. I wasn’t sure, but then, you know, I ran into this great hand control developer and he said, look, I’ll put you in couple of my cars.

You can test them. I have different hand controls in each one, and you see which one you like, but you’ll see the response time is no different than driving with your feet. Mm-hmm. He convinced. So I think we need to go back for a moment before we transition into our last segment and talk about maybe some of your guys’ pet peeves about being on track, especially with hand controls, like we briefly touched upon passing and how complicated that can be and turn signals and things like that.

And you know, there’s a few of us in GTM that have had the privilege of coaching. Mateo, myself included. To be honest, he’s so smooth that you can’t tell the difference. He’s a hundred percent right. He’s been doing it forever. And if you didn’t tell me, and I. You know, hopped in the right seat and be like, okay, let’s go, let’s go.

Obviously the challenge always occurs when you’re coming up on another car, offline passing or giving [00:53:00] somebody else a pass. I found it to be a similar and rewarding experience like I had teaching a right hand drive car for the first time where I’m in the the driver’s position and going, what do I do now?

Which was awkwardly confusing. It’s like wearing your shoes on the wrong feet, you know, that kind of thing. I don’t want it to come across that way. When you’re teaching somebody with hand controls, it is exactly the same, the car feels the same, it reacts the same. It’s the drivers using different tools to get the car around the track.

So that’s just a little bit of advice. I’m passing onto any coaches that are listening to this, but I do want to go back and talk about some of your guys’ pet peeve, some of the challenges you’ve had coming up through the different programs and some advice for folks that want to get into this for the first time.

Eric, can I just thank you first for putting it the way you just did and I say that sincerely because treating us as normal is kind of the MO here. I’ve seen way too many novices out there that what will they do right before they do a point by? They’ll jam on the brakes, like they’ll actually [00:54:00] jam on the brakes hard, then do a point by cuz they’re like, well, I had to slow down in order to point them by because they needed to go around.

Well, they’re not in a wheelchair yet. One of the worst things you can do, you’re on the line and there are people behind you and let’s just jam on the brakes. Well, I thought that’s what I was supposed to do, and you just put it right that it might just be different. But only thing I can add to that, what you said, which I think was spot on, is never ever be scared to ask.

I think there’s such a stigma about asking questions without asking creates assumption. I think the three of us now have all talked about how easy it is to break. I’m pretty sure that’s gonna come to a surprise to most people that are listening to this, that we have such finess when we’re breaking how easy it is to use your hand controls.

If you’re in a wheelchair, that might come to a surprise to people because they’re not used to it. It’s because we’re making assumptions about other people. When we don’t actually know, I think it’s okay to [00:55:00] say, I have no idea how you do this. Can you tell me? And guess what? I love to talk about it and I think it’s great and I wanna show other people, and I wanna hear about their experiences too.

It’s just as they use their feet, doesn’t mean I can’t learn from them, right? So I’m asking them about heel toe because it means that I can learn how to hit the throttle while I’m breaking at the same time, which is also why I chose my hand controls so I can rev it differently and hop into a different gear with a D C T.

So one of the biggest pet peeve is not asking questions, being too nervous to offend us. You’re not gonna offend me. We’re not dainty little flowers. We’re not snowflakes that are gonna melt. You know, when we get a drop of water on us, we’re there gonna, that are gonna race our cars and we’re gonna try and beat you just like you’re gonna try and.

We’re gonna gloat when we get off the track and we’re gonna tell you how much better we are. It is the exact same. And so we’re not there to be treated any different. And I think that’s the biggest thing for me. When somebody wants to knock us down a peg and [00:56:00] put a wheelchair symbol on the back of your car, I guarantee you that no track worker that is running toward a flaming car is gonna look at the back of Tim’s car and go, well guys, hold on a sec, because there’s a wheelchair symbol on the back there, so let’s open the door differently and let’s ask him how he’s feeling before we take him out.

That’s not, you just pull somebody out. There’s a woman named Kathy at S E C A, who she’s just really blunt with me. It’s great. And she’s like, no, here’s what we’re gonna. And I’m like, okay, cool. There’s no difference. So I’d say my biggest pet peeve is not asking and making assumptions. And then the second thing is there’s a statement that works for a lot of minorities, and that’s never for us without us.

So there are a lot of people that are creating things or trying to make rules for people and chairs without people in chairs representing the conversation. And again, that is making assumptions for a group of people that they know nothing about. I haven’t been in a chair my whole life. I don’t expect anybody [00:57:00] to know what it’s like to be in a chair.

I can’t because I didn’t know what it was like to be in a chair. As long as you have somebody sitting there and say, Tim, what do you think? And if Tim go, yeah, I agree. Or Mateo saying, no, I, I think that’s a little wrong. That to me is kind of where it should go. I guess. I, I understand what you’re saying.

With the stick in the back of the car, like it wasn’t something I asked for and I just had kind walked up to the car when, when they were putting them on, I’m like, what are they going on there for? And they’re like, oh, like, well, the Sirius wants it and dah yada ya. And I just, I was too busy I guess, with other things and focusing on my driving really to worry about it.

Did you see five extra horsepower with the sticker of the sticker? Yeah. Competitors come up to me and like, they come up and they say, oh wow, we, we think it’s great what you’re doing. And you’re still out there, you’re still loving what? You’re still enjoying this passion. Like we’re enjoying it. You’re just doing it a different way.

I don’t think anybody looks at it negatively or they definitely don’t like take it easy on me because it’s on there. They still bump into or push off the track cuz it’s professional racing. Pet peeves or anything? I don’t really know if I have any per se. Maybe because all the people I’ve been in the racing world and going [00:58:00] up in the ed world that just have just been so like equal minded on what we’re trying to do.

It’s the same thing or wanna go fast on the track. So it’s, and everybody’s kind of embracing it, open arms. So it’s, it hasn’t been really any negative towards me. It’s always been my happy, positive place. You know, Eric, I feel like I’ve been, I’ve been a negative Nellie here. I, I do actually wanna agree with Tim on this one.

I would say, if I’m looking at percentages, I’m talking right now about a small group of people that tend to be loud, you know, and h HPDs because they wanna puff their chest thinking that they are the best drivers in the world and that they know better. When Tim, to your point, especially in the pro ranks and, and all the way up there in those ranks, there has been nothing but respect from people that are really good drivers that I know, that have looked at me and been like, let’s just figure this stuff out.

And let’s make it work. If you’re gonna lose, you’re gonna lose. If you’re gonna win, you’re gonna win. I’d say more people that I respect are like that. It’s the people that I don’t respect that weekend warriors, that think they’re better than they [00:59:00] are. They’re the ones who are trying to put the stiff arm up in the weirdest ways.

I guess that’s just normally that kind of mentality, though. It’s just very. And I, I mean, I thought they were the best out there too, until I met some of the pro drivers that came in, like maybe to coach for the weekend and they were like six seconds, five seconds quicker than them. When I saw that, I was like, well, that, that’s what I wanna do.

That’s what I wanna be. So I love that. I gotta say that, you know, and I think the way I’ve been treated in life is I don’t feel like I’ve ever been treated any different than, than I was when I didn’t break my neck. But I also think a lot of times it’s on you. You gotta make the people feel comfortable around you.

It’s also the way you act makes people feel comfortable or uncomfortable around you. Or maybe I’ve just been fortunate as far as the car clubs with Eric and all the guys that are around him have always treated me equally and they’ve never made me feel uncomfortable. I probably would’ve nailed somebody with my wheelchair if they put a wheelchair sign on my car, you know, with the foot pegs [01:00:00] or something, you know?

That’s fine. Yeah. I don’t even think they ever thought of doing that. Eric would probably say that would mess up the look of the car, you know, putting, you know, it just wouldn’t look right. But that’s actually a great point and I bring that up because one of the things I want coaches to be mindful of, regardless of if you’re working with disabled people or other minorities or whatever, is never be patronizing, that’s probably the bigger mistake you can.

Our jobs are to keep every driver safe. Hopefully they have fun. And at the end of the day, learn something. My guarantee has always been, I will make you faster and always ever asked for a refund before. And that’s the truth. When I get in the right seat with you, I’m working with you. It’s my goal to adapt and overcome to whatever situation is presenting with me.

And as a coach, especially doing this for 10 years now, as a de coach and, and so on, you’ll learn a lot and you’ll learn it at a hundred miles an hour. Right? So for me, blue purple, clinging on in a wheelchair or not, it’s all the same. We’re in a car, we’re learning something, we’re having [01:01:00] fun. But I think that also segues us into how the Just Hands Racing Foundation is changing the way we look at folks in your situation.

So I wanna turn it over to Torson to talk about the program, what you guys are doing, how you’re bringing out new drivers and and things like that. Yeah, I appreciate it. So our mission started and still is by way. It’s taken a little bit of a turn. Is giving. Anybody who uses hand controls as their daily driver, the opportunity for performance driving.

It’s that simple. People can say to me, yes, but you can bring your daily driver onto an H P D E track. Why can’t somebody in a wheelchair do the same thing? Well, my response is if something does happen on a track for the one time that it does, we can’t go to a friend and say, Hey, can I borrow your car for a week while mine’s being fixed?

Right. No hand controls. It’s harder to go to Hertz or a. And get a rental car. So we tend to be a little bit more passive I guess, or thoughtful about our everyday car in case something goes [01:02:00] wrong. Cuz again, we can’t get a replacement that easily. So we decide to buy an E 92 and we decked it out so it’s fully stripped.

It’s got roll cage, diamond plated floors for the straps to be able to go in. Thanks to a m t mark over at am m t We have fire suppression that he got us, which is amazing. HMS has given us almost all the safety stuff from uh, seat belts to helmet. And track coms, like they’ve been nothing but amazing to work with.

I donated the seats to put in there. We have removable steering wheel. The removable steering wheel is one easier to get in and out for people who don’t know how to get in and out of a race car. But also we have a deep dish and a spacer. It brings it closer to the driver, the the steering wheel. Cause the closer you are to the steering wheel, the more you’re using your should.

Versus using your arms. If it’s straight out a bent arm, always better than a straight arm. So the closer that the wheel is with a dish, the better you are as a driver. And also, if you think about it, you [01:03:00] guys, as able-bodied drivers, if you have two hands on the wheel, you’re pulling into the turn, which means that you’re going in your back.

For us, we’re pushing into the turn, we’re pushing up into the wheel, so we’re using more shoulders and tries for a lot of the turn. By making a deep dish steering, we’ll bring it closer to you. It, it removes a lot of fatigue for that. So I have very, very little fatigue at the end of a very long session, like an hour long session.

The last thing for the car, we have dual hand controls. So we have left and right side hand controls. So depending on what you are familiar with in your everyday driver, what you use, that is the hand controls that we will make active. Now, if you choose to use the other hand control, so if you’re left throttle, but you wanna try right first, we’re gonna start you on autocross.

I’m not putting you on a main track to learn how to do something that’s dangerous. That’s like learning how to do stick shift for the first time ever and then getting onto a track going a hundred miles an hour. It’s inappropriate. So we get anybody out onto a track. And there, there are three different offerings that we [01:04:00] have.

One is H P D E, what we’ve talked about. So we joined sanctioning bodies like Audi, N E Q S C, C A B M W, car Club, whomever, usually here at Limerock cuz this is where we started, although we’re, we’re gonna do East coast stuff very soon and we get a novice slot. They’re treated just like anybody else. They just happen to be in a car with a really cool delivery on it.

They’re treated just like anybody else with an instructor in novice group. That’s number one. Number two is autocross. So those are people that might not be ready to go onto a track or somebody that wants to learn how to balance the car, or somebody who just think autocross is more fun for them than h, hp.

D E is whatever their flavor. They then do autocross. And then the third one is ride-alongs. As a quad, I can tell you that there have been some sports where I just can’t participate in. I didn’t want anyone ever to feel left out. So I thought, well, why don’t we throw somebody in the right seat that get them to experience it even if they can’t do it?

Because even sitting on the side seat gives [01:05:00] you the thrill, not just if you’re driving, but also if you’re driving with somebody who will scare the crap outta you. And so those are the three offerings that we have, which is really cool. And that is just. That’s awesome. I never really had that, or I even knew there was organizations like that really when I started to get into racing.

They don’t exist, which is the problem, Tim, and that’s why we started this. Glad you said that, that you didn’t know it’s out there. It is for that reason that we started this because it is so difficult to get in the sport. This is coming out of the mouth of somebody who. You know, race is an SRO and has reached such high levels.

You’ve had to go through more stuff to get into it, had more gumption to get into it. You have the resolve to do that. It’s very difficult for, you know, just everybody to go do that. So I give you credit for getting to where you are. Well, thank you. Thank you. But it’s something that I don’t want to take credit for because it’s something that so many people have helped me out along the way.

I’ve had great people, like initially from my pca like Reason Toyota region, which is near Pennsylvania. I’ve had, like I [01:06:00] said, the late chin pace help me get into racing. And then my carding coach, like Willie Petes like, like I, I wouldn’t be where I am today without him. Cause like when I first got into a race car, it’s not like a straight car.

It doesn’t talk to you, the tires don’t talk to you. The trashing control, like it says it’s on, but it’s not really on like a straight car. The brakes are different. Everything feels different. And then, then like a car is the most close thing you can get, like to getting all that feeling and really like improving.

You’re driving to the next level if you really want to be serious with racing and, and go at professional levels and, and like carding is like a great place to start. And there’s options even for paraplegic people within carding as well. And just to get into the board. And if you just want a taste of it is, and, and just enjoy it like a lot of people do wanna do.

It’s, it’s good with what you’re doing, I think. To really show people that that option’s out there for them. If I may just tell a quick story, something that now has happened twice. I, I think it was you, Mateo said you had a grin from ear to ear when you came off the track. And I think that’s what everybody has.

And then I had [01:07:00] a woman who came up to me, and this actually now happened a couple times. One very explicitly and one implicitly, and she’s crying and she said, you have to know two things. One, he has not been mobile for too long. Now he is on a racetrack. That means a lot to us, so thank you. But two, they had their 12 year old son there.

And your father’s to sons are heroes. They’re unbreakable, they’re unflappable, they’re unmovable. When he landed in a wheelchair, this 12 year old lost the hero status for his father. They came to the track, it was the three of them. He gets off the track. The son kept saying, I want to be like Daddy. I wanna be a race car driver.

The wife had said, you brought back hero to my husband. Something that my son had lost. It was that moment I first off was like, you gotta walk away. I’m gonna start crying. But it was that moment that I realized seeing and experiencing this is just as impactful for [01:08:00] the person that is in the wheelchair as it is for those who are in the family and around the person in the wheelchair.

And to have the son bring back a feeling that he hadn’t had before because he saw him on track meant so much to me. We knew that after the second person who had told me that two different experiences we. We’re doing something that’s better than just getting somebody into a novice H P D E and experiencing a track, although that is pretty awesome.

I think we can all say that as well, but it’s bigger than that and it meant a lot to me, and so we, we realized we were on the right path. That’s awesome and a great story. I just wanted to know, do you need to have like track insurance for doing what you need? So this is probably a bigger conversation than this podcast, right?

It’s a whole new podcast to talk about should you have it. So we as a foundation have it. We have it both from a liability. We, we use Haggerty insurance for our track. Then the track has insurance and the sanctioning body has insurance. Then sign a waiver. So there is just like any sanctioning body that [01:09:00] Audi would have to go through, you know, for liability and protection.

We do the exact same thing, not because people are in chairs, but because it’s the right thing to do. It protects them too. If something goes wrong with them, we have the ability to help them as well, which also the right thing to do. While I can talk about loss of property and say, that’s sad, I really don’t care about the car.

I care about the people inside the car, which is also why we went way overboard with safety equipment. We had said, let’s build a safe car and then make it go fast. Let’s not build a fast car and then add some safety to it, right? We started with the safety stuff. So the answer is yes. We, we definitely have insurance and I have it for my personal cars as well.

Track insurance. So if Matt Mateo wanted to come up and drive the just hands, bmw, how does he set that up? How does he make the arrangements? What does it cost? So I’m gonna change that to if he wants to, and it’s going to be when he comes up and does the Just Hands experience. This podcast is gonna remove any options.

So anybody listening, if you ask Mateo, [01:10:00] has he done just hands? And he said, no, let’s give him some, uh, some flack for that. We work with the sanctioning bodies and we, I’ve looked at now the calendar thanks to H P D E junkie and, uh, looked at the calendar and said, what’s near us? Thompson Limerock Palmer.

At some point we’re gonna be going a little more north, maybe down to Jersey two. Where can I get a novice slot? And so the way it works is anybody who uses hand controls. And has full triceps can drive the car, meaning they have to be able to transfer into the car by themselves without a sliding board.

So no aid. And that is because when you’re going through return, we all know you’ve gotta be strong and you’ve gotta be able to push through return. There are quadriplegics who don’t have triceps. That to me is proof that they don’t have enough triceps to go through return. And that stinks for me to say that they can’t do it.

But it’s a safety conversation. It is not a pity conversation. The first thing we do is we have a conversation. I say, Mateo, tell me a little bit about your disability. You know, what can you use? What kind of hand controls do you [01:11:00] drive? What’s your experience? Once we get that down, what do you wanna do? Do you wanna do H P D E or do you wanna do autocross?

Or do you wanna do a. Once I figure that out, I then go and get a slot at what are the sanctioning bodies? And a lot of them we already have. I then say, all right, on September X, come on up. It is 100% free. So you show up and we give you your Hans device. After our Hans, I don’t care if it is mandated or not by the H hpd, you have to wear a Hans.

It’s just the right thing to do. We have a couple helmets that you try on. You then drive the car around the paddock for a little bit just because every car is always a little different. Kind of like you would do when the ride and drive car, see how the clutch works, you know, and all that kind of stuff just for a little bit.

And then you join the group, meaning you’re just like any other driver. You get your instructor, they come into your into the car with you, and you are now ready to go. So that is how he is going to do it with Jeff’s. I [01:12:00] heard it’s gonna be at the October EM event at Limerock. There Mateo. So, oh, that’s, look Corey, if you’re listening, we wanna slot.

And that’s my birthday weekend. I think it’s October 16th. Yeah, we’ll be there. That being said, what does the next one to five years look like for the Just Hands Foundation? I hear from a little birdie, some rumors that you guys might be going to spa. So yeah, rsr, the big tractor, arrive and drive company that does Nuremberg and spa and I contacted them and I showed them how easy it is to put hand controls in.

And I connected them with the people that make my hand controls and how cheap it is to put that in. And you know, mathematically it takes two and a half rentals for them to make their money back and you can actually remove the hand controls. So able-bodied people would never actually know that they’re in there.

So two and a half. So financially speaking, it works out perfectly for them as long as they have two and a half people, which they will. August 10th and 11th, I will be doing Spa and Nuremberg ring, which I am excited and terrified at the same time. Um, I heard Tim [01:13:00] wants to go with you. Yeah, that’d be pretty cool.

They have a, uh, a BMW M two 40 ir and they have a golf R both, you know, massively track modified to be race cars. To answer your second question, what’s the next one to five years? We are most likely going to be working with a big racing school in this country to put in hand controls around the country.

We then also want to act as, I’m gonna use the word consultants, and that is like we did for rsr. Here’s how easy it is to put them in. It takes five minutes to put ’em in or take them out. Here are the three things you need and here’s how easy it’s going to be and show different arriving drive companies around this country and maybe around the world.

I don’t want to get too big for our britches, but if we can create a just hands brand, that means that as we’ve proven here, there’s a lot of nerves about what type of hand controls are in a car and can I use them and are they right? If you have a just [01:14:00] hands kind of brand on it, you know what you’re getting.

When you go to different track, when you have a Just Hands program, you’re getting either a right or left hand controller. It gives people and chairs ease of saying, oh, I’m not gonna show up and it’s gonna be something different. I’ve heard some war stories and I’m not gonna say names or places where they’ve had really bad hand controls and people have left the school or the arrived drug cuz they didn’t feel comfortable.

And I think still having more cars that we can use in different places. So that’s kind of one to five. So the big question for all of us able-bodied folks is how can we help? Are there ways that we can contribute and share in the just hands experience, what is it you need from. How can we be of service?

Oh, I love that question because it’s so broad and big and, and we definitely need it. The first one’s money, donations always help, and that’s whether it’s $20 or a thousand dollars or anything in between. It really doesn’t matter. A hundred bucks gives us gas for the weekend and whatnot, and so it’s Avery, but that’s [01:15:00] always number one, but I don’t count on that.

The other things, they’re smaller, but they’re just as important. Are people going from the northeast somewhere? So do they have an extra spot on their trailer where they can help trailer our car if we went to Watkins or if we went to New Jersey or v i r? Let us know if you have a spot. The second thing is if you are part of a sanctioning body, like an Audi or a BMW club or pca, give us a.

And say, we’ll give you a novice slot, whether it’s for Autocross or for H P D E, and come join in on the fund and just donate one of those. Those I think, are the three biggest ones. Money trailing the car and giving us spots. We have so many reservations. We have not done any publicity. We already have 70 signups within a month and a half.

I don’t know how I’m gonna fill those. So anybody who says that there’s no demand, I’m more than happy to ask them to help and get me another car to do this. So that brings up a really good point. Maybe there’s some [01:16:00] folks out there that would be willing to, let’s say, use their spec Miata or some other car and have hand controls adapted to it to make it part of the just hands fleet.

Is that something you’ve considered? Hint, hint, wink, win. Yes. Nudge. Nudge. For folks out there that are thinking this right now, I didn’t even go that far cuz I think that’s such a huge thing to ask. But you are a hundred percent right cuz you can remove the hand controls and no one would know That would be, wow.

Such a wonderful idea. So folks, if you’re interested in doing that, maybe you got an older race car or one that you put not as many laps on these days, something to consider, you know, reach out to Torson on how to do that, how easy it is. Be able to make these cars available at different tracks around the country, you know, not just in the Northeast.

And I would also ask Torsten for us coaches, would it be useful for us to drive a hand control car with the hand controls to get a better understanding of what you guys are up against when you’re out there doing your laps. Oh that, yes. I, I love that question. I did that for a group of people and they were so [01:17:00] thankful to do it.

And actually, funny enough, they came back saying how easy it was. They were shocked at how simple it was. But yes, I would be more than happy to sit side seat and tell them, stop moving your legs and we’ll tape down their legs so that they can’t use pedals. But that would be great, even if they didn’t want to teach people in chairs just to understand what it’s like to be in somebody else’s shoes.

Right? And that’s not just disabled, that’s anything. Understanding what somebody else goes through in life is so important. So I think that’d be great. So gentlemen, as we close out here, any shoutouts promotions or any other items or things that you’d like to share that we didn’t cover thus far? Well, I don’t have any sponsors yet, so I need sponsor giving me a good card this year.

We’re, we’re still trying. We just, we have a lot of work to do, still to get a little more competitive. And I guess it’s just my carding coach. I can’t thank him enough. Like William Peeds, my teammate this year, like Rafa Matos, he’s helping me a lot, get quicker in the car. Well, I’d like to give a shout out first to Eric to get me back into it, but [01:18:00] secondly to driving aids.com, which is the owner of that company is the hand control company that put the hand controls in both of my cars, but more importantly, put the one in the TT that I’m able to race.

Lee Perry’s the owner and he did a great job and he, he really customized it to the way I wanted it and position wise and everything so that I could do what I love doing. For me, I’ll, I’ll rattle through the mobility, innovations and vital for doing the hand controls. I think Limerock Park has been nothing but I mean, first off, beautiful track, amazing track, but they’ve been so supportive of us by helping us at every single turn.

Fcp, Euro, h m S, which I mentioned, chair, nato, sport, Hankook Tires. Audi N EQ is the first one that allowed us on the track. We did our event with them and Eric and Alex and that group have been nothing but stellar and amazing and I can’t be more appreciative of them. We’re just so grateful in, in general, and so thank you.

If I missed anybody, thank you guys for being part of this [01:19:00] journey with us. It’s a humbling and exciting at the same. It’s very important for all of us to remember that Motorsports is one of the only sports that makes everyone equal no matter what appendages you use to drive. So if you or someone in your life is disabled driving with hand controls and would love nothing more than to get on track, please be sure to reach out to Torsten and the Just Hands Racing Foundation at www.justhandsfoundation.org or follow them on Instagram at just hands racing.

You can follow Tim’s progress as part of Fast Track racing via the SRO Motorsports website, www.gtamamerica.us. And for those of you that are GTMs out there listening, you can always hang out with Mateo at any of the upcoming events that we’re gonna be at, and maybe we’ll see him at a just Hands racing event in the near future.

We want to thank everybody, Mateo, Tim, and Torson for coming on the show and sharing their unique experiences behind the wheel. So I cannot thank you guys enough for coming on Break [01:20:00] Fix. And thank you Eric, for giving us the opportunity to talk about something that is pretty important and if people like you that allow us to kind of change the ratio and so we really appreciate that.

Yeah, thanks for thinking to me and um, coming up to me at the track and making me a part of this. Thank you. Thank you, Eric. My pleasure, guys.

If you like what you’ve heard and want to learn more about gtm, be sure to check us out on www.gt motorsports.org. You can also find us on Instagram at Grand Tour Motorsports. Also, if you want to get involved or have suggestions for future shows, you can call our Texas at (202) 630-1770 or send us an email at crew chief gt motorsports.org.

We’d love to hear from. Hey everybody, crew Chief Eric here. We really hope you enjoyed this episode of Break Fix, and we wanted to remind you that G T M remains a no annual fees organization, and our goal is to continue to bring [01:21:00] you quality episodes like this one at no charge. As a loyal listener, please consider subscribing to our Patreon for bonus and behind the scenes content, extra goodies and GTM swag.

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