WSIB: Starter Track Cars

Vehicles mentioned in this episode below.

and much, much more!

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Gran Touring Motor Sports Podcast Break Fix, where we’re always fixing the break into something motor sports related.

What’s going on, everybody? This is Brad, aka a, the triple six. I know this is the first time you’re hearing that from me, but that’s my nickname around the track and the paddock. And, and g t m with me, as always, is my co-host Eric. Hey, his nickname of course is Mon Cuatro . Uh, we’re coming at you with another episode here.

This, today’s topic is What Car should I buy? within the G T M community, the debate of which car should I buy never seems to fully end. Whether it be, what should I buy as my first track car, my backup car, my new daily, or I just want something different. The fury of this debate within our group will quiet from time to time, but during the slower months, someone will bring it up and the arguments re resurrect themselves in full.

You’re right Brad. And granted this question can be asked for various types of driving situations. I think we’re not really interested in talking about mini hands, SUVs and anything like [00:01:00] that. We really wanna focus on spirited driving autocross and track days. We’re gonna focus on those guys that aren’t looking and shopping for their second and third track car.

They’re really looking for their first one. But before we start, here’s some top tips from various members to keep in mind when you’re shopping for a new quote unquote sports. So remember Matt y comes at us and he says, never drive your heroes. And this one from our illustrious leader. Brad, look around the paddock and start with what you see.

Again, another gem from Matt Y. If you’re not okay with me putting a boot in the door of your car. , then you’ve selected the wrong car and pearls of wisdom from Sam Build versus Buy. Buy. So rather than rehash everything we’ve talked about on Slack for the 11000000th time, what we’ve done is put together a list of kind of our top 10 cars through the plethora of options that exist out there.

We’re gonna go through them and talk about why they’re great starter track cars. In no particular. But we’re gonna go [00:02:00] ahead and kick off with a fan favorite, the b BMW or the E 36 3 series and the M three s. So Brad, what do you think about those? Uh, you see a lot of ’em around the paddock. I mean, they’re, they’re very popular.

I think they’re, they’re very cheap to get into. They perform pretty well compared to. other cars that are out there, I guess for the money, I’d say they’re not rare, but their setup is something that’s hard to find these days. It’s hard to find a rear wheel drive car with a manual, uh, transmission, which some people will argue is the ideal, you know, setup or a track weapon.

I think that’s what one of the things that makes ’em very popular. The aftermarket form is really good. They’re, they’re a main state. The track, I mean, they’re very well-balanced cars. They don’t drive typically like. Rear wheel drive car, like say an American car where they’re, they’ve got tons of oversee or anything like that.

They’re very balanced. They, they handle really predictably, almost like a front wheel drive would. I think they’re, they’re solid cars. Having never owned one is easy for me to say. Uh, [00:03:00] since you have actually owned one before, let’s get your input on it. Yeah. So I mentioned this in the, uh, the Unaired pilot.

Of our podcast. But you know, for me, owning a bmw, it was like owning a boat. You know, the happiest days for me were the day I bought it, and the second happiest day was the day I got rid of it. And everything in between was an absolute nightmare. Now that being said, I bought the car because I was, I was working on something else, and it was down at the time.

And I was really curious. A lot of my friends have E 36 s and they love them and they, they speak very highly of those cars. And everything you said is a hundred percent true. But what I came to realize, To build a competitive E 36, it becomes a very slippery slope. It’s 30 year old German technology, which brings its own issues to light and parts availability.

Although very strong, you have to replace everything on those motors. They have valve cover issues, you know, uh, water pump problems. You got all these specialty parts that you need to throw in there to make the car reliable on the [00:04:00] weekend. Now that being said, . They’re not expensive, but it starts to add up very quickly.

Much like a boat. I recommend them for people. They want, like you said, a very well-balanced car. Something that’s very forgiving. It’s not a car that’s gonna correct your mistakes, but you’re gonna learn a lot from, from the E 36. It’s a very forgiving platform. So those are, those are my notes on that car.

And the best way to fix your B M W E 30. Is with Volkswagen parts a hundred percent . Yeah. So, so that, so there you go. There at prime example, you bring that up and there’s a backstory behind this and really it deals with the way the radiators bleed and all this kind of stuff. And, and the way it was engineered, uh, one of our members, Mike, can go into.

Much more detail than I can on the missteps in engineering there. But yeah, I ended up fixing my cars, let’s say, call it air pocket problems in the water cooling system, which those cars are notorious for by using VW parts, right? Because I didn’t wanna spend a gajillion dollars on European, you know, S 52 parts and all this kind of stuff, [00:05:00] because as we’ve always said, there’s a M tax, especially with the M versions of the BMWs, where just because it’s got that badge, It costs 10 times the amount for, for whatever reason.

Again, it’s a detractor, but you have to put it relative to a lot of other cars where, let’s say the Porsche tax is much higher, or the Ammg tax is much higher than the M taxes, depending on, you know, the year. So going down the line, um, there’s the E 36 when we’ve just been, uh, waxing idiotic about for the, the last five minutes.

Now let’s talk about his big brother. The newer, more powerful, some say more balanced, uh, E 46. Personally, this is my. Favorite of the BMWs? Mm-hmm. . I just, I think for looks wise, they just look amazing. Uh, and I think they’re, they’re great cars, uh, just to, to have on the street as well as the track.

Obviously they’re, they’re newer, uh, newer technology, so it may be a little bit better car creature comforts inside. Not that you [00:06:00] need that for a track hard, but some people that wanna do a dual purpose, they may care about things like that. They’re bigger, they’re more powerful than the, the E 36. Um, they’ve got fantastic power in handl.

and the last of the purpose-built M cars. The S 54, I think is what it was. Yes. The motor that came in those, uh, 340 some horsepower. Straight six. Just great cars. Uh, and they’ve got huge aftermarket support as well. Mm-hmm. , they’ve got some known failure points and known issues, especially with the m. Other than that, I think they’re, they’re great cars.

Another problem with them though, is they’re very hard to come by. Especially the, the M three s, now they’re, because they’re so desirable, especially the manual is very difficult to come by now, you can get the SMG transmission, um, which is, it’s very easy to actually, well, I don’t wanna say easy. If you’re, if you’re a diy, it may be easy for you, but parts aren’t that expensive to do the swap cuz you don’t need to change the trans, you just need to change some of the components with it.

Um, but what are your thoughts on the E 40? I don’t want to focus too much on the M [00:07:00] cars, although most of my experiences with the E 46 M cars, the base E 46 is, and I wanna, I wanna put this in a year perspective, if I remember correctly, and I’m not a BMW expert. The E 46 chassis ran from 2000 to 2005, 2006 ish timeframe versus the E 36, which ran from 1993 to 1999.

So it’s a much newer car, much more modern technology. It’s larger. 36. It’s heavier, but that’s okay because it makes a lot more power. Longer rev range, all that kind of stuff. I’ve been very fortunate to drive all sorts of different E 46 s, bargain basement, a three 30 I is the way to go if you don’t wanna pay the M tax.

Again, we mentioned that earlier. On the E 46 platform, and as you’re saying, the E 46 N three s are getting harder and harder to find. They are more expensive to operate, but they do reward you when you’ve done the proper maintenance and the proper modifications to those cars. Big failure point is the rear subframe.

They tend to crack, especially under load. A lot of guys have either already welded ’em even on the [00:08:00] street, this is an issue. They’ve taken care of it, so the, there’s gonna be some buyer’s guides you’re gonna have to look into to make sure that your E 40. Properly maintained and a lot of the known issues were already taken care of.

This is where you get into that debate of build versus buy. And on the BMW side, if you’re looking to graduate very quickly into something more competitive, like time trials or road racing or club racing, an organization like S E C A, the Sportscar Club of America or, or nasa, which is the National Autosport Association, then buy something already done and all the big dollar items have already been, uh, taken care of.

as well as the fact that the price point is really good because a race car is worth more in pieces than it is whole. And if you’re looking to pick up somebody’s last year car or car that you know they’re done with because they’re graduating out of, you know, spec 46 or onto another class, it’s a good time to pick up a car at very good value.

Next up on the list is one of our personal favorites, the Mark four Volkswagens. The Mark four Volkswagens spanned from 1998. If you [00:09:00] start with the beetle all the way through 2006, the more common is 99 to oh five. It’s very difficult to find 98 to oh six s, but that’s gonna be your beetles, your golfs, your Jettas, your mark one, tts.

They’re all built on the same. Fourth generation Volkswagen chassis. It’s a very unique chassis. It was a ground up redo, whereas the Marks one, two, and three were all evolutions of the mark one chassis. And then oddly enough, after the mark four, the 5, 6, 7 and and seven and a half and so on are also all the same chassis.

So the Mark four stands alone. A lot of people don’t like it because what VW tried to do was they got rid of the harshness of the early cars, made him a little bit. Cruiser ish. You know, Audubon Cruiser cars, which meant adding a lot of bushings, adding a lot of other things to smooth those cars out. But you have four engine packages to choose from, but two that are only really important at the track.

That’s the one eight Turbo 20 valve, and the 2.8 liter VR. Six. I recommend the 24 valve vr, [00:10:00] six for a million different reasons over the 12 valve, but realistically, if you’re gonna get in on a mark, four couple recommendations. The Jet. because it’s so cheap and it actually handles the best of the bunch because it maintains the C shape between the A and C pillars, which is actually what that chassis needs in order to handle correctly.

Because it was designed to be used for the beetle, which also has that art shape to it, and the suspension and the, the way the chassis flexes, it doesn’t really work great on the golf. That one and personally handles the worst of the bunch, even though we, we all have ’em. The Jetta is better. But the price point is really low on those cars versus A G T I where you’ll pay three or four times as much for the same car that you can get in a four door sedan, which by the way, only weighs about 50 pounds difference between the G T I and the Jetta.

So there’s a lot to consider there. You can get into a one E Turbo Jetta. You don’t need to get a G L [00:11:00] I or anything Special 20th anniversary editions and all this kinda stuff. Go buy yourself a thousand dollars Jetta with 150 k on it and run it till it explodes, but do the timing belt first. And we know somebody that’s done just that, bought a car on Friday and raced it on Saturday, a hundred percent.

So Brad, what are some of the drawbacks being a, a mark four owner yourself for that? . Well, let’s see. I’ve owned, I’m probably four mark fours in at this point, and I obviously for a track car, people say front wheel drive, not the way to go. I’m of the opinion, and front wheel drive is fun wheel drive, but a lot of the, the gripes about front wheel drive is that under steers like a pig, you can’t get ’em to turn, you can’t get ’em to rotate.

Take it from me as someone who constantly is, you know, oversteering and drifting out of oak tree at at v i r and even, uh, facing the wrong direction at pit race, in turn one . Those cars can definitely be made to over steer and rotate there. There’s no problems about that at all. So that’s some of the gripes about ’em.[00:12:00]

Parts, they’re old cars. Now, some of the distributors like ecs, they’re, there’s still parts available, but sometimes they’re hard to get e expeditiously. I don’t know. I, I don’t, I like ’em. I there’s, how many of them in the group? 10 in the group or something like that? Yeah, there’s, there’s eight dedicated mark four track cars right now.

So, I mean, that’s not our entire population, but there’s a, of course not. Yeah, we’re our own little tribe of, you know, the Mark four mafia, which we’ll probably have everybody together. Future episode to talk about sin kumbaya about how much we love those cars, but there are some drawbacks to ’em. And front wheel drive isn’t for everybody.

But I will say this front wheel drive is very forgiving on track. But to go fast in a front wheel drive takes a special type of driving style. It is not for the faint of heart, can have a lot of fun in the rear wheel drive, but you can. You can do some really, really interesting things that a real world drive can’t in a, in a well-prepared front-wheel drive car.

Before we move on though, there’s one other failure point of the mark four Volkswagen that we would be remiss if we, we did not tell [00:13:00] our listeners about. Oh. , how many axles have I had to replace? Yeah. Since owning my car, how many axles have you had to replace? Yeah, so that is, that is a huge drawback and that is a drawback of almost every front wheel drive on track is the axles are the weak point.

Now if you go to our website and search mark four build, we have a build sheet going from stage one to stage four to kind of help guide you through building those cars, learning from all of our mistakes and wasted money. But axles are a big one. I cannot recommend enough. The axles provided through U S R T, which is a usually sideways rally team outta New Jersey.

They’re built in part and licensed through the drive shaft shop in North Carolina, and they’re 500 horsepower drag axles. And once you upgrade to something like that, you don’t have any issues with those cars anymore. Reason being, most of the Chief Chinese axles that you get from, you know, advanced auto, they’re designed to get you down the road.

65 miles an hour, 55, whatever your highway speed limit is. But when you’re racing, there’s a lot of pressure on the suspension, especially front wheel drive because it’s doing the turning, the [00:14:00] accelerating, and the braking, all on those front two wheels. Another failure point because of that is the wheel bearings.

You know, stuff like that. And so once the cvs start to go, the wheel bearings start to go with them, it becomes a whole kind of cascading effect there. The reason those drag axles are so good, just, you know, we can talk about this in another episode in more. Inner cvs are from a Porsche and the outer cvs are from an Audi Quatro, so they’re really overbuilt for that car, which is fantastic.

And they can be rebuilt as we’ve, we’ve determined, we tore a boot in my car and I call drive shaft shop, and in, what was it, a week they had a replacement boot out to me. So you can call them and get, you can buy the components to build the, the axle, uh, separately if you damage something. Yeah, exactly. So what’s next up on our list there?

Uh, we’ve got the mini, which when I was looking for track cars, it was one of the ones on my shortlist. Why I say shortlist, it was actually probably a hundred cars in deep cuz anything that, you know, had a motor in a steering wheel and was not a truck was on my list at one point. And the Mini Coopers, they’re, they’re like the [00:15:00] GTIs.

Some people think that they’re, they’re better. They’re, they’re better handling cars. The motors are, even though they’re a little smaller, they’re quite tur torque gear. They’re quirky little cars. Uh, they’re tons of fun to. Having the wheels all the way at the corners of the car. I mean, I think that’s a, that’s a BMW specialty.

I mean, even the three series that they, that’s how they just engineer the vehicles and it, it lends them to be, to give a very good driving experience. And let me specify, we’re talking about the newer BMW owned, uh, mini Coopers, not the, the old ones, not the rally champs that are impossible to find in the.

Yeah. Um, that I would have to wear his shoes because I don’t fit in them. Now we’re talking about the newer, uh, more refined b BMW owned Mini Coopers. What are some of the drawbacks for ’em though? So we have a bill sheet for the R five X platform minis. I believe I, I’m not a mini expert, but we do have some mini experts in the club.

Some of the drawbacks. Having instructed them and having driven a few of them on track, mostly the supercharged minis versus the, the [00:16:00] later turbocharged ones. The short wheelbase makes them feel really, really twitchy and really unsettled versus a longer wheel based car like a Mark four or something like a, a Focus St or, or a Fiesta or something like that.

The mini’s just so short that you just never feel settled down. And actually that’s a common theme I’ve. Other BMWs, there’s something about that extremity that the suspension geometry that they just never feel like they’re planted like you would get with, you know, let’s say if you’ve ever driven an Audi cuatro where it feels like it’s just digging itself into the earth.

B m w Engineering makes them overly complex and they’re also prone to, you know, the seven plagues as we’ve seen through one of our members. I mean, they’ve caught on fire. At the end of the day. There’s not a lot of. To work under the hood on a mini and being a front wheel drive, it’s already compact to maximize the people space.

But working on a mini is just exceptionally challenging. And much like the Beatles, [00:17:00] you, you just kind of throw your hands up and go service position equal motor out, right , because that’s the only way you have any space. But they are cheap. They do share some components that you can borrow, let’s say from a Miata like wheels and tires and things like that.

Just, just don’t buy the Yankees cuz they break . Yes, we’ve experienced that as well. Operating a mini. If, as long as you take care of some of the issues I’ve heard there’s some seals that need to be taken care of, things like that, that are on the build list that, uh, Steve and Spencer have put together for us.

Like every car, once it’s all set up, you really don’t have to worry about it much. It’s just down to brakes and tires and they’ll pretty much last you in entire season. And the price point on the minis actually really good because they’re getting older as well. And I have heard that the, the motor mounts are a failure point on those cars as.

I mean, we do those up front on the Volkswagens because we know the stock ones are just garbage. Again, right back to those very soft bushings to try to make the cars drivable every day versus, you know, track use. So coming up [00:18:00] next is the, the famous B r Z and F Rs, the burrs and the first twins, oh man. Uh, that Subaru and Toyota got together and, and, and put out a few years ago and love child.

They would be amazing cars. If they had about a hundred more horsepower, not even that. If they had about 50 more horse. I think they would be a blast to drive. They’re, they’re supposed to be well-balanced. Their rear wheel drive, manual transmission. Uh, they’re very forgiving. I guess that also lends to being a little bit lower horsepower.

They’re very popular. They’re really popular with the kids. They’re not very expensive. Brand new ones are low thirties and high twenties. Mm-hmm. . Um, they’ve got a huge aftermarket. Again, Toyota and Subaru, uh, kids love them now. I will. That I’ve heard rumor, the new one coming out, I don’t know if it’s 2021 or 2022, is going to have a turbo.

That might be something to keep an eye on. I think they redesigned it. The look also is quite similar to the new Supra, so it’s supposed to be like a [00:19:00] baby supra. They’re great little cars if they’re well sorted, uh, as. we’ve seen at, uh, certain race functions with one group. Em a, uh, they can be made super fast, allegedly in fairly stock trim.

Yeah. The, the jury’s still out on that one, but, uh, well to your, to your point, right. So I think some of the downsides, the B R Z, you covered it in base trim. The B Z’s engine is not going to excite you. If any of our listeners are, are of a, of an older generation and ever they ever got an opportunity to drive a Porsche 9 44 in its base trim.

Uh, it’s the same thing. It’s one of those cars that they handle fantastic. They’re quick and nimble, but they just don’t like the world on fire. They don’t make any good sounds. They just, it’s just kind of boring and mundane. I hate to say, but you’re right. The price point is good, especially for a car that you can just go buy off of the Toyota dealership or the SU Subaru dealership.

Today for, you know, let’s say sub $30,000 and go have [00:20:00] fun and do nothing to it. Granted, I don’t live far from I a G and I see plenty of those cars out there being modified, and I’ve gotten an opportunity to instruct in some modified BRZs and stock ones. And I will say the modified ones, especially the supercharged cars, are light years better.

And that added, like you said, extra 50 horsepower. All the difference in making that car exciting in the same way the 9 44 Turbo really turned it up to 11 compared to the base, you know, 9 24, 9 24 s and 9 44 s that they were built on. The other thing I will say I have heard from, from some B R Z owners that when you really start to push ’em, they tend to be a little bit fragile.

There’s some parts in there that have to be upgraded, but if you’re just starting out, Very forgiving car, much like the E 36, much like a 9 44. It’s gonna reward you. You’re gonna have a lot of fun, but you probably will crave more as you go along. And it’s a Subaru motor underneath, uh, in both the, the, the Subaru and the Toyota.

And I believe that boxer [00:21:00] motor traditionally have head gasket issues, I believe. And I’m not a Subaru expert. I know Sam knows more, and there’s a bunch of other Subaru guys in the club. I believe this is a different motor. Then, uh, somebody online will correct my, my acronym here, I think it’s the EJ that’s in like the W R Xs and stuff.

This was actually a new motor from Subaru. It has a Toyota valve train and Toyota ejection system on it. Hmm. So it is a, a, a cross platform between the two brands. But yes, at the end of the day, the car, you know, whether you buy it with a Cion badge, you buy it with Toyota Badge as a GT 86, or you buy A B R Z, they’re all the same.

So up next on the list, it looks like we jump off. Deep end into a pile of bratwurst and there’s a Porsche 9 96 on this list. So we’re like, wait a minute. I thought we were talking about starter cars. Right? But the 9 96 actually makes the list because it is very much that it is like the perfect starter Porsche.

If you don’t want a front inch in Porsche, like a 9 44, [00:22:00] 9 68 or something like that, the 9 96 is really great value for the money. And it wins out over the aging 9 44. But there are some concerns with the 9 96, and I know you’ve looked into this car extensively, Brad, so tell us about it. The, uh, i m s bearing, the intermediate CHF bearing is a huge fail point.

And I mean the, not even just for the 9 96 port, uh, for the nine 11, but also for the, the boxers of the same year. If that goes, I mean, you’re putting 20 grand into a new. people can buy these cars. Uh, once you do, if it hasn’t been done already, make sure that that failure point is taken care of. I can’t imagine because it’s a Porsche, Porsche parts aftermarket parts and stuff, even though they are there, they’re gonna be quite pricey.

Just like with BMWs, you pay the M tax. With Mercedes, you’re gonna pay the AMG tax. If you’ve got an NG model, Porsches, you’re gonna pay the Porsche tax regardless of what Porsche model you have. If you’ve got a little bit of money to burn, uh, and you’re looking for something, [00:23:00] There’s tons of aftermarket support.

There’s the Porsche Club of America is a club dedicated to Porsches. Uh, you can get into their specific Porsche races. Huge, uh, support system there. Those people know everything there is possibly to know about Porsches now they tend to not like the 9 96 because of the looks. . I don’t know why. I think they’re great looking cars.

They say they’ve got the, the egg drop headlights. I don’t see a problem with ’em. I would, I would own a 9 96 if I could afford it right now. And I think it was, it was also, uh, old guard versus new school adopting water cooling for the first time. Yeah. You know, a lot of those, the Porsche Club racer guys.

You know, they’re dedicated air cooled cars, right? Uh, I gotta have my 27 Rs, I gotta have my nine, you know, my three six twin spark. You know, all those, those motors that, that were classic, especially a lot of those guys are still running vintage. But now time has, has progressed and you’re seeing 9 96, 9 97, 9 9 ones, you know, GT two s, GT three s, they’re all water cold nine 11 s now.

But [00:24:00] the thing is on the 9 96 and the reason it’s a good starter. if you want a different experience. And nine 11 is a completely different driving experience because it’s, you know, it’s like throwing a hammer. It’s a front wheel drive with five reverse gears, right? and one forward. But realistically, it is bargain basement.

There was a period there you could get a 9 96, whether it had the IMS done or not. For sub 15 k, I mean all day long. I’m like, cars.com you’d see oh 9 96, uh, $13,000. what? So if that’s your cup of tea, you know that little bit of Earl Gray there? , or maybe sauerkraut in this case, , but. The, the, uh, the 9 96 is definitely the way to go, but again, do your due diligence as Brad said, talk to some people about those cars first to figure out what’s going on.

So what’s next, Brad? Next, we’ve got the Ford Mustang. Specifically, we’re gonna focus on the 2014 and up the redesign, independent rear [00:25:00] suspension, you know, all that good stuff. They’ve. Three motors, four motors, depending on if you go with the, the GT three 50 R or like a GT 500 or something. To me, there’s really only one motor.

It’s, it’s the Coyote V8 or nothing at all. You can take the Turbo EcoBoost motor. They’re great little motors. You can get a lot of power out of ’em. , but it sounds like a weed whacker going down the track. I mean, if you have a Mustang, it shouldn’t sound like that. The V6 is another stout motor. I don’t know if they’re still offering it with the v6, but that was another good motor.

I had 300 something horsepower, uh, and a base car. It’s pretty, pretty good. But for me, if you’re gonna own a Mustang, then you’ve gotta have all of the Mustang, which is all eight cylinders. All the crowd control. Yep. Yep. . So having had the pleasure of instructing and driving several of these cars, I’m really infatuated with them.

They’re actually really, really good. And it’s, for me, it started almost before this car came out. I got opportunity to coach in some boss 3 0 2 s, the 20 thirteens, and the rumor has it, though the car was [00:26:00] completely redesigned. I have my speculations. German division of Ford was involved because it’s unlike anything else.

The suspension was derived from the 3 0 2 and the 3 0 2 at that time. When I got in out of it for the first time on track, I was like, this car is fantastic. Out of the box. I could not believe how good the handling was that carried over to the S five 50, which is that the current generation of Mustangs and the the engine choice is really up to you.

As you’ve alluded to, the mods are there and we have proof through several members. The four cylinder is fast, especially with that Ford Power Pack, which is, you know, doesn’t void your warranty. It’s something they sold the boost of power make it almost 300 at the rear wheels and the four cylinder screams.

It’s a lot more reliable than something like the Focus Rs, which has the same motor. We’ve seen nothing but problems with those cars, and that’s why obviously they’re not on this. , and I think it’s because of the packaging too. I mean, the, that, that short nose, everything’s compact in the focus Rs, um, there’s, there’s no room for it.

Because the [00:27:00] Mustang was designed for the V8 or designed to at least house a v8. There’s so much more room in there. Air probably flows better. These are just my assumptions and, and conspiracy theories at this point, but that’s why that, that’s my personal belief as to why the, the Mustang. are more reliable and being an American car, like you said, has great aftermarket support.

Wheels, brakes, wings, you know, whatever bling, whatever you wanna put on there. And that’s great. The downside to the Mustang is it is a bit heavy, especially when you’re comparing it to the Corvette, which I don’t know why they try to compare themselves cuz they, it doesn’t belong in that pony war. Right?

It’s. Camaro and Mustang. It’s always been that way, but they try to reach and say, ah, the Corvette, and it does. It can perform and it can get out there and beat up on some Corvette’s, especially with the five oh and the GT three 50, but it is heavy. Do notice that when you drive it, the hood is kind of long, so you have to get used to the perspective of looking out over the front of the battleship

But the thing is, The weight balance is really good. So the car is really predictable. It’s [00:28:00] got a lot more intelligence in it. The independent suspension is fantastic. I will say the handling on the four cylinder is better than the coyote just because it weighs probably half as much as the V8 does. Right.

And I think the other big. Negative to having a Mustang track car is that you’re never allowed to go to cars and coffee. Ever . Yeah, yeah. True. You, you lose that, right? The, the second you sign on the dotted line, and we don’t want to just focus on the Mustang here. As you brought up earlier, you alluded to the, the pony war.

There’s also the Camaros and the, the challengers. They’re both in the same vein as the Mustang. I think the Mustang wins on. Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, say, I mean, if you read any rodent track or, or car and driver article about the comparison between the three and the Mustang is definitely the better choice for the track car.

The Challenger is a better choice for the street. It’s a nice place to be, especially the redesigned interior and the newer ones. I know the exterior of the car [00:29:00] is the same, has been the same for what, 200 years now, ? It has not changed at all. Uh, I think people used to pull oxcarts with them. Yeah. But the car itself is, it’s.

There’s no need to change it. Why change something that that works? Uh, they sell really well. They’re, they’re really comfortable. They’re great. I would call them great. Just touring cars. And the problem with the Camaro, which we’re kind of avoiding talking about here, the problem with the Camaro is, and I don’t wanna offend Brett, who we’ll have on, on a later episode for sure.

The problem with the Camaro is it’s heavy just like the Mustang is, but I think it’s heavier even then. And when you compare the package, and the price to get like a one le or a Z 28 or a z L one or something like that, you just go, eh, I’m just gonna go buy a Corvette, right? Because it’s, um, the same power.

Or like, but the Corvette is a better car. And I’m like, you know, why do I wanna drive around in a Corvette that weighs as much as, you know, my wife’s minivan , right. So the, but I, I can tell you why though, because I don’t fit properly on a Corvette. [00:30:00] I fit and one of the, some of the most fun I’ve ever had on.

Is riding shotgun in Brett’s Camaro. I will give you that. I will give you that. And that’s actually the down one of the downsides we forgot to talk about in the B R Z. It is a small cabin. So for you, I don’t think you’d be very comfortable in the B R Z, you know, after a half hour stint. Yeah, not with a helmet on for me, the Camaro.

Just going back to wrap that thought up. I always downvote that car because I have a hard time seeing out of it. And it’s not because I’m short, it’s just because I feel like it’s a chop top and the, the visibility especially kind of over your shoulder and the blind spots and it has those, those big hips and stuff.

It just, the, the belt line is a little too high in that car. Right. And I understand that’s just, this is the way cars are being designed nowadays. But in that car, especially the BeltLine, It’s just, it’s just too high. The, the, there’s not enough window space. And you’re right. That’s one of the criticisms you ask anybody, uh, that, that does tests and reviews of them.

The, the first complaint is, I can’t see out of it. And that translates to the track for those listening at home. [00:31:00] Visibility at the track is key. You need to be able to see where you’re going. You need to be able to look across the A pillars and, and, and look at the apex, right? You need to be able to see behind you who’s coming.

That’s a big drawback to the lotes. Like Andrew just picked up, you can’t see out of those cars. I mean, I have a hard time in the Audi with, I have a tt and it’s the same thing with that really small back glass. It makes it very difficult to see sometimes. So you have to get really strategic. But, we’ll, we’ll park that for now.

We can talk about the pony wars at at another time. Now we’re going back to front wheel drive. Hey, and we’re gonna talk about the Hondas, uh, I mean Hondas, Acuras. I mean, we can lump in the, the Nissan Sentras and, and anything really, uh, small economical front wheel. Small motor. You do not need to make a lot of power to have fun at the.

you need something that’s going to be nimble and it’s gonna be reliable where you’re gonna be able to find parts for it. And the, the Hondas, especially the, the, the nineties and early two thousands sis, in addition to the Acura Integris and everything are [00:32:00] great options. Mm-hmm. , uh, and also you can get the, the prelude if you wanna be a little funky, you want something a little bit different.

We’ve got a couple members. Honda fanatics and they’ve got the preludes and, and stuff like that. Um, the, the big bore, the big boar Honda. Yeah, the big boar Honda . Um, they’re, they’re great cars. They’re reliable. I mean, they, you can run the the heck out of ’em. You can probably get four or five hours, uh, out of them at, at, at full tilt, uh, wide open throttle, and you just ask for more.

They, they take a beating and they do not care. They’re very cheap to operate. If anybody’s ever seen fast and the Furious, which we hope our listeners have at least watched the first one, they’ll know that the aftermarket support for that is huge. , especially if you want spoon engines, , and to Rob banks, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Underflow, , . But yeah, they’re, they’re, they’re great cars. They’re, they don’t have the, the luxurious factor of the mark fours really thin materials, uh, really thin metal and sheet metal and stuff like that. [00:33:00] Um, they don’t have the fit and finish of some of those other cars. But for a track car, who the hell?

Right. And that’s actually part of their beauty. And part of the, the, is the simplicity and the lightness, right? Uh, the, the, the Lotus Mantra, add light, add lightness. But, uh, the Hondas already start there. But the thing is, and, and I’ve had the pleasure of, of running many Hondas and we have Dino, several of them and things like that.

The Honda’s an interesting car because as you said, it will take a beating. And it really reminds me of the older Italian cars, you know, those spaghetti powered motors that live their lives at 9,000 rpm and they’re not happy if they’re not there. The Hondas are very similar. They don’t, they’re not known for making powerful engines, you know, and let’s take the NSXs and, and all those, those things off the table.

Let’s just talk about the four cylinders, right? Anywhere from the 15 hundreds to the, to the two liters, uh, you know, discounting the bigger motors. , but. You look at the numbers and it’s like 900 horsepower and 43 foot pounds of torque. And [00:34:00] torque is what you feel, and that’s usually the drawback. The negative that people give about a Honda is it just doesn’t feel like it’s moving, but when in reality you’re looking at your exit speeds and because you can keep it wound up, because you can stay in the power band as long as you’re above vtech, you can actually go really fast and the cars are deceptively quick.

I will say, ding it. Uh, we, Dino Matthews Civic, SI, he’s got a 99 and off vtech until VTECH kicked in. It made the same power, identical to a spec Miata 1.6 liter. Right? So dollar for dollar, the B 16. and a one six Miata made the same power. When Vtech kicked in, all of a sudden the torque curve just stayed the same and the horsepower nearly doubled, and it sounds like a completely different engine.

It’s something to get used to. Those are the type of cars you really have to scruff ’em. You have to drive ’em really hard. It all gets kind of obfuscated by those torque numbers and all that kind of stuff, but it doesn’t mean you’re not gonna have fun. But again, if you’re looking for cheap, easy, [00:35:00] big parts, uh, aftermarket support, the Honda is a good.

It’s a good recommendation. All right. One of your personal favorites, Corvette , but. Big asterisks is here, right? It’s kind of like the Volkswagens. There’s one generation that’s really a great starter car. And that’s the c5? The C5 being the correct, my correct. My years on those cars, it’s in the early two thousands, much like 97 to 2004.

There you go. Okay, so we, A lot of these cars, you’re starting to realize they’re overlapping here. The E 46 s, the Corvette’s, the Porsches we’re talking about, even the VWs, they’re all in a similar age range. They’re getting up there, 15, 17, almost 20 years old. They, they’re really affordable. They were good cars then.

Cars today are very different, but the C five s specifically, again, very different than the cars that came before it. But also different than the cars that came after the C6 was a complete redesign and everything’s based on that. The C4 carried over from the [00:36:00] older generation, like the C three s and stuff like that.

So to me, the five felt like a different chassis. And I, I’ve been very fortunate to spend time, uh, with the national Corvette, uh, museum organization in the Corvette Club and have ridden in. Different generations of Corvette on track, and I always feel the most comfortable in the c5. The C4 is, is kind of rides like a truck.

The C6 is super twitchy. The c7, you feel like you’re in a jet fighter. It’s a completely different experience. The C5 is a driver’s car. It’s got big horsepower. For that time period, 400 horsepower and 400 torques, and you don’t need to do any moss to it because even now they’re talking about speck Corvette racing, which is all based on the c5.

So I look at it as big motor, big fun To clarify, the zero six Yeah. Is the one with the 400 horsepower and, and gobs of torque. If you get the, the lower model. Uh, I say lower model, but like a base c5. Uh, with the target top, they’re around [00:37:00] 345 horsepower is what they were advertised with the crank. And then for the Z oh six, you want 2002 to 2004 for the 405 horsepower.

The first of the oh six, 2001 had 385 horsepower, but you’ve always told me with those American motors, throw a cam in there and then exhaust and all of a sudden you got a hundred horsepower. Yeah. With the LS motors, they’re very easy to mod. The car is not very heavy. I mean, so it’s, it would not be hard.

You don’t even need all that power. The power that comes with is, is great. They’re, I think they’re, I think they’re great cars. They’re a little more roomy than the newer vets. It’s still nineties Chevrolet sitting in one, so it’s not a great place to be. So you’re rocketing down, you know, the back street of B I r passing Volkswagens and Hondas and Yeah.

Everything else of this list. Yeah, exactly right. To get to the point of cost of ownership, they. A bit pricey to maintain the, the rear tires, the 3 45 s. Um, they’ve got a staggered setup, so buying wheels for ’em, unless [00:38:00] you get the same all around, then you gotta keep track of that so the expenses can start to add up for those cars.

Then just maintenance and everything like that. Exactly, and I think you’re gonna start to see with this spec or spec Miata with this spec Corvette racing that’s coming out, you’re gonna see a lot of really interestingly, similarly, rather prepared Corvette’s and when people get out of the series after a year or two or three, because that’s usually kind of the length of a lot of those series, unless it’s spec me outta racing or spec E 36, which now is, is actually kind of sun setting as well.

You are gonna be able to pick up a spec Corvette for not a lot of money, and those are gonna be well prepared cars with logbooks sorted and you want to go out and have. . Again, going back to what Sam said when we quoted him build versus buy, buy next is the answer for 99.9% of people out there. All of this talk that we’ve been talking for, what, 45 minutes now,

It’s all, it’s all been faud because the answer has been right there in front of us the whole [00:39:00] time. Oh man. The ma Miata, they have spec series and everything. Uh, they, they, they’re cheap. I mean, you can get ’em, you can get the NAS for. The, uh, bag of chips or something like that. , they’re very well-balanced cars.

They’re very forgiving because they’re low horsepower. They don’t, well, we’ve got a friend that loops it all the time, but that may be his driving style versus . But they, they’re, they’re great cars. Tons of support. Like, because there’s a racing series, uh, they’re, they, I mean, you can get. Tires for ’em for 50 bucks.

Racing slicks. If your goal is to go racing, it’s the best car. The best thing about the Miata is being on track with other Miatas though, when you’re, if you’re out on track in the Miata and you’re at a de event, for example, where the, everybody’s out there driving whatever they brought. You’re gonna be given a lot of point bias.

I, I’m not gonna lie, but if you’re out there doing spec racing, you know, in the, the racing series, uh, then you’re out there with everybody else, you’re all even playing field. They’re a ton of fun. I’ve never been in one of the spec Miata races, but I’ve [00:40:00] watched enough of ’em. And why, why, why is that, Brad?

Is there a reason why? Uh, uh, no. I, I don’t know. I, I just haven’t gotten into it. I, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t say why . All right. Listen. He’s six four . We’re just gonna leave it there. We’re gonna leave it to your imagination. Okay. I fit in some of the Miatas. I do not fit in the, the originals, the NA and the Nmb.

I, I, I don’t really fit, but why don’t we talk about some of the other drawbacks other than the size. Yeah. So I’ve been really fortunate. I’ve driven all four generations of the Miata. I will say. The early cars do not impress. Right. Especially the one six s. If you’re looking at a spec car fully prepared with all the goodies and bells and whistles, as long as it’s not a cheater motor, you’re looking at somewhere between a hundred and 104 wheel horsepower.

That is nothing to write home about. And that’s 104 people, not 140 . Yeah. 1 0 4. . The other thing is the Miatas are, are now 30 years old, [00:41:00] right? They came out in 1990, probably in Japan, actually a little bit earlier that probably 89, but still they’re getting up there. They’re getting a little long in the tooth.

So don’t expect big numbers, but it’s a car actually modeled after the Lotus Ilan if you really go back in time. And so it has that simplicity, it has that lightness and that 104 horsepower wheel horsepower. You’d be amazed what you can do with that. Because it really forces you to grow as a driver, and so you end up driving that Miata at the absolute limit.

I mean, a lot of guys run nine tens, 10 tens, I run at 11. But in you’re a Miata, all of a sudden you’re cranking up to 13 because you have to overdrive it in some cases to really squeeze out every drip. Of blood out of that turnip. That being said, when you graduate from Amata to something else, you just graduated Jet Fighter School, cuz you get it any other car and you are going to be fast, but you have to have the patience.

You can’t expect it to be fast right away because it isn’t. It’s a momentum car now. Every car has momentum. I can hear people [00:42:00] buzzing in my ear, but it’s one of those things where it’s all about carrying speed and maximizing your exit speed on every corner. If I had to pick a mi. For myself, I really like the nc, which is the third generation MIAs.

Those came out in 2005 to 2013. There’s actually an NC one and an NC two. They did a, a split in there. It’s bigger, it’s more comfortable. It also has a two liter 16 valve instead of the, you know, you know, the smaller motors from the early days. It’s a much more rewarding car because it makes 140 horse.

Ish. I’m gonna add that in there. But , the nds for me, the, the current ones are too small because they’ve gone back to making them the size of the n Na and Bs. But of the new generation, I’d have to pick the Fiat 1 24. Just because it, I can get it with a turbo and I can chip it and make double the horsepower immediately.

It is a different power plant. It’s not a Mazda power plant. It’s a fiat, a Barth, multi air, uh, engine from the [00:43:00] 500 a Barth. So that’s nice. I also like the fact that the, the 1 24 is bigger, but I still, I call it a fiat, so it’s still lives in that Miata category, but you’re gonna spend a lot more for new Miata versus go on racing junk.com.

Type in the word mik and there’s probably a hundred of them to choose from right now that you can get into that are fully sorted and fully prepared. That’s another car I would argue if you’re, if you’re really destined on going racing, just buy one already done. It’s not worth building one from scratch, but if you’re looking at doing some Dees driving it on the street, you know, to throw the top down, have a good time, or do some autocross, you know, some, some spirited driving.

The Miata is the all around probably best package on the. So with that being said, not, you know, not to wax poetic about the be out of that much more cuz the people that know, know and the people that don’t are gonna buy one soon. So are there any honorable mentions on this list, Brad? There are, I don’t know why there are, because all these cars that I’m looking at here are turds, but the , there are some honorable [00:44:00] mentions out there.

Uh, I mean, we briefly mentioned the Porsche 9 44. Okay. Uh, sell me, sell me one. Sell me. Why? Okay. Well, so the 9 44 was one of these weird cross pollination projects where there’s rumor. You know, some, some Porsche purists have are now arguing that the 9 44 was always supposed to be a Porsche. And if you’re in the VW Vag family, then you go, no.

It was designed by vw, much like the nine 14, and Porsche stole it from us and said, no, we’re gonna slap our badge on it. Go to town. There’s so many crossover parts between like a Mark one rabbit. and uh, and, and an Audi truck and like, and the 9 44, it’s not even funny, right? Because the, the part numbers, it’s like, oh, that’s a door handle off a rabbit.

You know, stuff like that. It makes it cheap, which is good because if you know how to cross match the parts, you don’t have to pay the Porsche tax cuz you can buy the equivalent Volkswagen part bolt right up and you’re done. Also, if you’re talking about it being cheap, you’re not talking about the turbo one then, correct?

Correct. You’re [00:45:00] talking about the na. Correct. Yeah. Now we already said, but we’re comparing it to the B R Z. Right? So non turbo normally aspirated. Those motors run forever. They’re relatively bulletproof. There’s a couple years there at 25, 27, there’s a rumored three liter in there. I, I th. , I would lean that towards the 9 68.

Don’t, don’t, don’t quote me on any of this stuff. There is a 16 val version in a normally aspirated car, all that kinda stuff. But the Porsche 9 44 was one of, at the time, Porsche’s highest selling cars because it was more affordable than the nine 11. It was more arrogant IR dynamic than the nine 11, you know, stuff like that.

And people could just get into it. It was the every man Porsche, much like the Ferrari 3 0 8. Was the every man’s Ferrari. That’s why there’s so many of those cars, despite the popularity from Magnum PI and, and all that kinda stuff. Tell me why you don’t like it. What’s in the con column here? I, I, I personally don’t like the turbos, I guess because I’ve heard, well, one, they’re expensive.

They’re expensive to get into, expensive. They’re hard to find. They aren’t very reliable, and this is all [00:46:00] purely hearsay. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I’ve got zero experience with them. Personally, I prefer the, the lines and the look of the 9 24, but it’s either a 9 44 NA or a 9 24. The first thing I would do, other than painted guards.

Red is to do a motor swap and put a one at in it. or ls, right? Like No, no. I’m, I’m gonna stick with the, the Volkswagen. I’m gonna stick with the one A or maybe a two liter if I want to get a little saucy with it. Mm-hmm. or even a VR six. You put any of those motors in it done? I, I’m sure it has. I don’t know, I just, I don’t know.

It’s not a fan for me. I mean, the 9 44 is an icon, right? I mean, they came out when I was a kid. It’s, it’s a car, you know? You see ’em everywhere. I mean, you don’t see ’em as much anymore, but it’s an icon. But it really hasn’t aged well. Right? I think owning and operating in nine 40. For, unless you’re really willing to work on it yourself.

And we have a portion master mechanic, uh, in our group who’s told us horror stories about these cars. They do have head gasket issues like you, you mentioned because of the way the [00:47:00] engine’s constructed and all this kinda stuff, you need to be able to turn wrenches on those cars because there are still, uh, mechanics out there paying off their mortgages on nine 40 fours because they’ve been doing that since the eighties.

Um, So it’s really important you get, you know, kind of get your knuckles dirty and, and work on those your yourself. I will, again, it’s another car building from a base. 9 44 is an expensive endeavor, right? Getting all those high quality parts, taking care of all the mistakes, taking, you know, Doing 30 years of evolution.

Let somebody , like let somebody else’s wallet have taken care of that. Again, go to racing junk, find one that’s already built. Here’s one we often forget and actually one of our members just picked one of these up. It’s the Nissan three 50 z, the first generation 2003 to whatever year. And, and don’t forget, it’s brother, the, the, the G uh, 35 and the G 30.

That is correct. I like the Z. It is 15 plus years old now. The prices have come way down on these cars. The VQ motor, despite being a [00:48:00] Reno engine that comes out of a like run of the mill sedan, it’s actually a very strong motor. Reno is pretty well known for building very good high performance engines in Formula One and Rally and, and things like that.

So, I’m not saying that the street cars are as good, but the VQ is proven to be a strong motor, much like the two jz, much like the one eight Turbo v R six and stuff like that where you can mo and they will take a beating and just keep going. The handling on the three 50 Z, cause I’ve had the pleasure of, of instructing in a few of these cars.

They’re super neutral, very forgiving, and I’ve run in some that are modified and some that are almost bone stock and. I couldn’t believe how good they were and how rewarding the driving experience was. I kind of, I always had this stigma in my head of like, oh my God, it’s like a 300 ZX from, you know, just after the, the early Z cars had gone away.

The first time I got in a Z in a new Z I was like, man, this is really cool. But it’s often a car that is just again, [00:49:00] overlooked, is forgotten, and I would put it right up there with a proper mods is just as good as like an E 46. So what do you think, Brad? Uh, I don’t. So it’s not on my list, but that’s why I mentioned the, the, the G 35 and G 37 s.

Cuz I think they’re, they’re nice places to be. They’re nice cars. They’re bigger, uh, obviously, uh, because it’s got the infinity, that’s more there, there’s street touring car, uh, and I I, it’s pretty much the same car underneath. I’m sure there are some minor differences, but basically they’re the same car.

It’s harder to find one in a manual. They are out there. Uh, the three 50 Z, if I fit better I’d, I’d be more sold on it. But because I don’t, and the same with the 9 44, I just, I don’t think I fit properly in them. Uh, and it’s just a problem that I have. Uh, we’ll talk about it at a later episode, but it’s just, it’s very hard to find vehicles that are fun to drive, that I actually fit in

So I, I think you’ll agree with me though. You can pick a VQ out of all the cars going around track, it has a very distinct [00:50:00] sound to it. It’s not a bad sound. You put an exhaust on a z, you’re, it’s gonna, it’s gonna be pleasure to your ears, uh, if you’re into slightly louder cars. But I think the drawback for the Z is because there aren’t very many of them as de cars.

There are lots of drift Z cars and, and z cars built for other disciplines, drag racing, et cetera. You’re gonna be a bit of a pioneer when it comes to road racing. So it means the aftermarket scene and the parts, and I’m going through this with Porsche Al right now, who we’re gonna have on the show at a later date where he’s like, so what am I targeting?

What should I be looking for? I’m having, I’m, I’m kind of reaching here to find these things that, for you guys with BMWs and, and, and VWs and, and minis and all this stuff, you guys can get those parts tomorrow. And I’m like, yeah. So he is gonna have to dig in, do a little homework, but he’s starting to chip away at it and it’s becoming easier.

He’s a bit of a pioneer, especially for us to say, Hey, this is how you build a Z card, and he’s gonna do a write up on that. If you’re looking to buy one. , be careful of the, what I call the showy cars or the stance [00:51:00] bro cars, because they’ve got all the wrong mods. You’re gonna spend a lot of money to undo stuff.

Bring the camber back, raise the car up, you know, get rid of the tint. You know, all these kind of things that are completely unnecessary at the track. By the way, airbags not a good suspension plan for red racing. I’ve also heard rumors in the Zs are prone to have transmission problem. There is an upgraded transmission for those, and I know Matthew always tells me the joke is, The, the transits are so bad in the Z cars that Nissan was just giving new ones and telling people to, to throw the old ones away.

They weren’t even doing court charges. That being said, you know, it’s 15 years later, so they’ve made modifications, there’s some updates to those, those cars to take care of the drivetrain issues. Do your research, you know, dive into that kind of stuff before going haul hog on three 50 Z. So what’s. Well, we’ve already touched on it a little bit earlier, but the final recommendation we have is basically anything front wheel drive, eco box sedan.

Our example would be a neon. I mean, there was an entire racing series [00:52:00] dedicated to the neon. Uh, it’s cheap, just like the Hondas and the Volkswagens. Uh, there. Yeah, b really inexpensive. They got huge aftermarket support, especially because there was a racing series for them. They’ve got decent power.

They’re a little torquer than the the Hondas. Uh, they’re, they’re fun, they’re fun little cars. Uh, I, I don’t think there’s racing series for ’em anymore. Um, but if you go on racing junk, I’m sure you can find a ton of those cars out there. Especially cuz there’s no racing series. I mean, and we’re talking about the original, the, the first gen, uh, neons.

There’s also the second gen neons, which the s r T four, it’s still a neon even though it’s s r t four, it is still a neon . Um, but, but that’s the big downside. But those cars are, are turbo cars. Uh, turbo four cylinders. They, they came out of the box with 300 horsepower, I think 200 something on horsepower.

Very easily modelable. You can get big power out of those cars. More power means more responsibility and more things start to break. Um, so you’re mindful of that. And then the downside is it’s [00:53:00] an eon . Yeah. So, and, and to your point, right, I have time trialed for a couple seasons against. Uh, through with S E C A and every time I went, there was always a neon in the group, and one of the guys I was targeting in the, in the higher classes was actually running a World Challenge neon.

And I was really surprised how much effort it took to chase that car down, especially the, the s R T four. I mean, they’re making, well, I think we were limited to like 320 or 330 wheel horsepower. And getting those kind of numbers out of an s r T for neon was like, okay, sure. Let. , let me just turn the dial and we’re ready to go.

That being said, it’s not a bad handling car, it’s another car you can dial in with, you know, lift, throttle over steer, just like the Volkswagens and stuff like that. But yeah, to your point, I mean there’s a lot of jokes about the neon, and again, it’s why it’s on our honorable mention list because it’s often overlooked.

It’s a. Cheap car to get into, a cheap car to maintain. There is some sharing there with, it’s a DSM [00:54:00] platform or engine platform, so you’ve got some of that Mitsubishi crossover, especially in the early cars. If you can get a 16 valve sport, that’s a, that’s an eclipse motor, so it’s a lot better than the run of the mill base Chrysler engine that was, that was put in those cars.

The, the S r SRT four actually is overbuilt. The block is the same as a mini, if I remember correctly. Somebody told me that, which is actually. A Pojo 2 0 6 or something like that. So it’s a European block and then everybody puts their head on it and the turbo of choice and, and all that kind of stuff. But again, it’s not a car to kind of just turn your nose at if you’re looking for a starter car to get in on, on track use in order to widen your net.

we recommend a bunch of different websites if you wanna look for some of the cars that we’ve already talked about or if you just wanna see what else is out there. I mean, there’s tons of people racing cars. Uh, and then when they race them, they get bored with them, uh, as you know, we all do. Uh, and then they sell them.

Uh, so racing junk is a great place to look. Um, there’s also, uh, bring a trailer. Uh, I think bring a trailer has a lot [00:55:00] more. Of the, I guess, collector cars. So that garage queens. Yeah. The, the prices are gonna be all over the map on, on that site. Um, you can go either way. Um, but based on some of our member experiences, you can often bring unforeseen problems with some of these cars.

Uh, as, as you said, the, these garage queens that they may not be set up properly for, for driving. Uh, they’re just weekend warriors, I guess. Mm-hmm. . . And finally, I think, you know, one of my go-tos is always cars.com. I mean, I’m not here to plug or advertise any one of these sites, but these are the tools you have at your disposal to find an entry level, you know, uh, track car, autocross car, you know, B Road Bomber.

I’m with you though, , I go back and forth, right? I have fantasies. I’m gonna build one. I’m gonna buy one. It all depends on the mood. , but I think these three websites you recommended are, are really, really strong in that category. And remember, your mileage may vary. So it’s really, it’s really gonna be different for everybody.

And I will throw something out [00:56:00] there. You know, if you look hard enough on bring a trailer, you might be able to pick up a Pinos, ESP ASPIRAnte full on TT one Race car. So for not a lot of money, and, uh, park it in your garage and never work on it. But that’s an episode for another day. So, In full disclosure, I just have to add this as we wrap up.

Our high level assessment of all the cars on this list is really based on our members and our owner and owner experiences. We urge you to do your own research and fact check everything before committing to any one of these vehicles. GTM and Brad and I specifically we’re not responsible for your satisfaction, your happiness, or your overall track performance.

You know, winning trophies, all that kind of stuff. That’s, that’s up to you with whatever vehicle you choose. So make sure to visit, you know, vehicle specific online forums and or owner’s clubs for highly detailed, firsthand information on any vehicle you might be interested in. So with that, Peace.

So there you [00:57:00] have it. He broke it. I fixed it. Until next time, always remember, if you can take it apart without breaking it, you can surely fix it. From all of us at GTM Merry Motor, Inc. If you like what you’ve heard and wanna learn more about gtm, be sure to check us out@www.gt motorsports.org. You can also find us on Instagram at Gran Touring Motorsports.

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So that we can continue to record, write, edit, and broadcast all of your favorite content. So be sure to visit www.patreon.com/gt motorsports or visit our [00:58:00] website and click in the top right corner on the support and donate to learn how you can help.