For more than a century, the 24 Hours of Le Mans has stood as one of motorsport’s ultimate tests of endurance, skill, and resilience. While Bobby Rahal is best known for his triumphs in IndyCar, his ventures into Le Mans during the late 1970s and early 1980s reveal a fascinating chapter of his career – one that underscores his versatility and passion for racing on the world stage.
Rahal’s path to Le Mans was rooted in sports car racing. Growing up around his father’s campaigns at Sebring and Watkins Glen, he was immersed in the world of endurance racing long before his IndyCar success. Watching legends like Brian Redman, Jo Siffert, and Peter Rodriguez in Porsche 917s left a lasting impression, fueling his own ambitions to compete in Europe’s greatest events.
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By the late 1970s, Rahal was racing Formula Atlantic, Formula Three, and even making appearances in Formula One. Yet sports cars remained close to his heart. His partnership with Bob Garretson and Garretson Enterprises opened the door to Le Mans, beginning with the iconic Porsche 935.
Synopsis
In this episode of Evening With a Legend, Bobby Rahal, renowned for his IndyCar accomplishments, takes center stage. Rahal shares his stories and reflections on his experiences at the 24 Hours of Le Mans during the 1980s. Despite endurance racing not being his primary focus, Rahal’s versatility and adaptability shine through as he narrates his journey, starting from sports car racing roots and his partnership with Bob Garretson. Rahal elaborates on his experiences driving the 935 Porsche, his challenges at Le Mans with the March GTP car, and the influences it had on his career. The conversation concludes with insights into Rahal’s ongoing passion for motorsport and aspirations to return to Le Mans as a team owner.
- What initially drew you to compete at Le Mans, and how did that opportunity come about in the context of your open-wheel career?
- First impressions are everything – Was Le Mans the first time you’d raced in Europe? How did you prepare for Le Mans?
- Were there any cultural or technical differences between American and European racing that you noticed during your time at Le Mans?
- What was it like sharing a Porsche 935 with Bob Garettson and Alan Moffat during the 1980 race?
- How did your approach to racing at Le Mans differ from your strategy in IndyCar, particularly in terms of endurance and team dynamics?
- Let’s talk a little bit more about the 1982 race. Porsche by this point had stopped producing the 935s and had moved on to cars like the 956 and later the 962. Why did Bob (Garettson) decide to move to a March Group C car instead of sticking with another Porsche?
- What stands out to you most when you look back at your time driving the Porsche or the March in the world’s most famous endurance race?
- How did racing at Le Mans influence your perspective on motorsport as a whole, or affect your approach once you returned to open-wheel competition?
- What lessons or memories from Le Mans have stayed with you the most throughout your career in and out of the car?
✨ Takeaway: Bobby Rahal’s Le Mans chapter may not have ended with trophies, but it enriched his legacy as a driver who embraced every challenge. His journey reminds us that motorsport’s greatest stories aren’t only about victories – they’re about the pursuit, the passion, and the people who make racing unforgettable.
Transcript
Crew Chief Brad: [00:00:00] Evening With a Legend is a series of presentations exclusive to legends of the famous 24 hours of Le Mans giving us an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you. By sharing stories and highlights of the big event, you get a chance to become part of the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing.
Crew Chief Eric: Tonight we have an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you sharing in the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing. And as your host, I’m delighted to introduce Bobby Rahal, best known for his accomplishments in IndyCar. He also made notable appearances at the 24 hours of Le Mans during the 1980s.
Though endurance racing was not the primary focus of his career, Bobby showcased his versatility by competing in [00:01:00] the iconic event multiple times, driving for teams like Porsche and March. Despite setbacks preventing a top finish, Rahal’s participation highlighted his adaptability and competitiveness on the world’s stage and his involvement in Le Mans reflects the broader scope of his racing legacy.
Bridging American open wheel success with international endurance prestige. With that, I’m your host crew chief Erick from the Motoring Podcast Network, welcoming everyone to this evening with a legend. So Bobby, welcome to the show.
Bobby Rahal: Well, thank you. Nice to be with you.
Crew Chief Eric: Everybody’s got a superhero origin story, so let’s focus in on the part of your career that surrounds Le Mans.
What initially drew you to compete at the 24, and how did that opportunity come about?
Bobby Rahal: Some people who’ve known me for a long time would know that the early parts of my career were spent in sports car racing. That’s where I started. Specifically with SCCA, but you know, my father raced at Sebring in Watkins Glen from 1969 to 1971.
So we participated in the 12 [00:02:00] hour and the six hour races. I grew up around sports, car racing primarily. I mean, yes, open wheel racing was what I, I wanted to do, but at the time as a kid, I was involved with his racing. I went where he went, so, so, um, in any event, racing in those years. I got the chance to watch the greats at Sebring Watkins Glen, and got to know my well later on.
Got to know, but got to see my friend Brian Redmond, you know, raced the nine 17 Porsches. Of course, Joe Sifford, Peter Rodriguez, you know, all the great drivers that drove for Porsche. And then of course, you know, the Ferrari drivers Alfa Romeo. I mean, it was an amazing period of time. And so that really motivated me to a large degree.
So really before I got to IndyCar racing, you know, I’d won Daytona 24 hour. I had raced at Le Mans. So racing sports cars. Was really, uh, something that was a, frankly a, a goal of mine. And to race at a place like Le Mans was a goal of mine. And I was fortunately, although not [00:03:00] successfully, but fortunately, I was able to participate in
Crew Chief Eric: your road to Le Mans also involves the partnership and friendship that you grew with Bob Garretson.
Bobby Rahal: Yes.
Crew Chief Eric: How did that come about and how did he help get you to Le Mans in your first attempt with the 9 35?
Bobby Rahal: Yeah, well maybe go back a little bit in, in 78. I was racing mainly Formula Atlantic in the United States. I raced in New Zealand at January of 78. Came back. That’s when I was introduced to Walter Wolf, who owned the Wolf Formula One team, which Jody Sector drove for and after.
After the race at Long Beach in 78, Walter, he came to me and said, Hey, I want you to drive our Formula Three car. That was based at Dallara, the Dallara that we know of today. It was based at his small, small factory in Ano Italy. And with the idea that I would race certain Formula Three races in 78 with the idea of racing Formula One races at the end of that year, which I did.
I moved to Italy, lived over there for about six months or so, began my [00:04:00] relationship with this wonderful man named Dr. Del in GaN Lau. Great guy. Wonderful. Drove his first Formula three car ever. Of course, later on he would design and build cars that would really dominate Formula Three. And frankly, now, I don’t know, a series in the world that doesn’t rely on Dallara to a certain degree for providing automobiles to go to race with.
But in any event, at the end of 78, I did the US Grand Prix, Canadian Grand Prix. You know, the hope was I was going to drive for Wolf in 1979. They decided not to run a second car, which meant that I was on the outside looking in. Of course, I, I then went to drive Formula two in 1979 for the Chevron factory.
Great experience. Loved racing in Europe. I mean, I really loved racing. For me, even from the days I watched the movie Grand Prix, which had such a huge effect on my life to the idea of racing in Europe was, to me, that was like, that was, that was the goal. And, and of course I had heroes like Dan Gurney, who had done that for years and been very successful, you know, and Phil Hill, you know, many others.
[00:05:00] So, seven nine drove Formula two. Uh, halfway through the year I was hired by a fund named Herb Kaplan to replace George Fulmer and his Canam car. Did that. We were pretty successful in that car, but really my goal was still to race in Europe, you know, hopefully get back to Formula One. That, as I said, didn’t transpire, but at the end of 79, I went to Daytona for the last EMSA race.
And I went there purely to meet people. ’cause I didn’t really know, even though, you know, I’d come from kind of a sports car background. I didn’t really know many of the people involved in sports car racing. Uh, in those days it was John Paul Sr. It was the Whittingtons. You had, of course the Garson team, Dick Barber, you know, in the 9 3 5.
Porsche of course was really the car to have at the time. So I went to Daytona purely to just introduce myself to everybody, which I did. To be honest with you, I can’t really recall the meeting I had with Bob Garson, but the next thing you know, I’m in Mountain View, California, which is where Garson Racing was based.
And uh, we’re there and here’s this really [00:06:00] awesome 9 3 5 Porsche with Apple computer all over it. And, uh, they hired me. It was, I think about six races. In fact, I think we only did six with that car. John Fitzpatrick was the primary driver for Garson, for Dick Barber racing Garson Enterprises, and he had the sax 9, 3 5.
He won the championship in, in 1980, I believe, with that car. In fact, the car, that Apple car really was an amazingly successful car. It won Sebring as a 9 34. It won Sebring. I don’t think we ever won Sebring with that car as a 9 35, but of course we won at Daytona with it in 81. And then maybe even more famously, in 19 79, 78, I think it was Paul Newman finished second in the same car at Le Mans, currently owned by um, Adam Corolla, who has it restored in the colors that Paul Newman drove in, but an amazingly successful car.
So in any event, I’m trying to think. The first race we did with that car, I believe was Sebring. We did Riverside, a six hour Riverside race, did Sears Point, [00:07:00] Watkins Glen. I was on pole at the Watkins Glen six hour race ahead of the works. Lance is, and you name it. Everybody in the world was there at uh, most part we raced it and I’m not quite sure, I can’t remember the la the other race.
But in any event, I just got this opportunity through Garson, through Bob and probably Dick Barber. I would assume it to some level. It was a great experience and I loved driving the car. And of course then a year after that we go to Daytona with Bob and Brian Redmond and win the 24 hour. So, you know, had a lot of success with that single car.
Crew Chief Eric: You already had a bunch of experience driving in Europe.
Bobby Rahal: Yeah.
Crew Chief Eric: But Le Mans was still one of the crown jewels. Yeah. You on your bucket list you wanted to race at and then you finally get there in 1980. Yep. Did it live up to your expectations?
Bobby Rahal: It, it was such, such an amazing. Event. You know, Le Mans it like they say, they say the three biggest races are Le Mans, Indy 500 and Monaco Grand Prix, and I think that’s so right.
Because the environment is just so unique and so amazing and so electrifying that with all due [00:08:00] respect to all the other races around the world. You go to Le Mans in India, or Mon Monaco and I, I’ve raced at Monaco in the Formula three series with Dallara. You know, these are bigger than life, these events, and certainly Le Mans was no different.
I mean, I’ve watched the Steve McQueen movie. When I was a teenager, 17 years old or whatever. Again, for me, because I wanted to race in Europe, to go to Le Mans was just a dream come true, and it didn’t let me down in any respect at all. I mean, it was an amazing circuit. Of course, it still at that time had the original moles on straight, all three miles or so of it.
It didn’t have the original part that was like White House corner and, and things like that, but it was still pretty much the original Le Mans. It had the Dunlop curve, which was a fantastic coming up the front straightaway and we go underneath the Dunlop Bridge fast corner, very high risk corner, especially when it was raining.
But yeah, you know, I, I really ticked that, you know, that little box on your bucket list or whatever to race at Le Mans, even though we ended up not finishing the race that year, we had been competitive [00:09:00] and, and so disappointing not to finish, but so satisfying just to have been there.
Crew Chief Eric: So, a lot of other legends that have been on the show and, and are within your era.
Mm-hmm. There’s like a 20 year span there. Talk about preparing for Le Mans, how difficult it was compared to today, where you have, every simulator has a version of Le Mans that you could race and try. How did you prepare for Le Mans? Did somebody give you notes or pointers or did you just figure it out on your first out lab?
Bobby Rahal: No, you know, in my day, as you say, you didn’t have simulators. I don’t remember people taking much in the way of notes about anything. I mean, it’s not like today. No, it was on the job training. You would, uh, go out and do practice regardless of what track you were coming to, especially if it was for the first time.
Your ability to be competitive was based on your ability to really learn the circuit quickly and to just have that ability to take it all in as quickly as possible and then take advantage of it. And of course, every session you drove, every time you went out, you were just building up that knowledge of the circuit.
And that even held true [00:10:00] during the race, during each stint that you drove. You know, there was just something else you would learn and you get better at it. So no, there was, there was no racing. There was no Jim Russell, there was no, uh, again, no, as you say, no simulator. No. It was just up to you and the team.
And Yes. If you had, for example, I mean, I was so lucky to have to drive with Brian Reman on a number of occasions. Because Brian would kind of fill you in, Hey, you gotta look for this, look for that. But I would also tell you that most drivers, they didn’t share that much. It was, it’s up to you kid to learn.
And so you took advantage of every second you had on the track. And again, tried to learn everything you could every time you were in that car and, and that’s just kind of the way that was the way it was.
Crew Chief Eric: So let’s dig into the 1980 race just a little bit more. Mm-hmm. You touched on some of the highlights.
As a private tier team, Garson Enterprises. Right. This wasn’t a Porsche backed team. You guys were on your own. Right. You know, small operation. What was it like strategy wise compared to what you were used to coming from IndyCar, coming from other racing? How did you have to adapt? Challenges you had to overcome?
Bobby Rahal: [00:11:00] Well, remember again, I hadn’t been in IndyCar until 82, so when I went in 80, you know, my experience was mainly Formula Atlantic, a year of Formula three, year of Formula Two and two Formula One races. But Garson Enterprises was just a phenomenal organization, and yet it was really based on, yes, there were a couple professional people within that organization.
Jerry Woods was pretty much dedicated to building the engines, and he was a great engine builder is a great engine builder, and of course Bob Garson, you know, he had been to Le Mans a couple times prior to my being there. He was a very studious guy, amateur, but very good driver and really kinda led the team not just on track, but off track and by example.
Bob was a wonderful man who just passed away about three, four months ago. But that team was made up for the most part of weekend Warriors, and these guys and ladies were so dedicated to this. Even today, there’s guys like Marty Roff. He, he was an IBM guy. In fact, I think he just retired from [00:12:00] IBM. Only a year or two ago he spent, he’s, like I told you, he always kidded him.
He was the, the longest remaining employee of IBM. But these guys was just not Martin or Marty as we call him. You know his brother Mark and still is involved with him. So for many years, and Mark was involved a certain degree, but there was just a bunch of other people that were. Involved yet, you know, but very knowledgeable, very dedicated.
These were amateur, these were weekend warriors that dedicated themselves to Garrisson Enterprises. I mean, they loved the racing. You know, they traveled all over the place and I mean, it was a phenomenal team that I would put up against any pro team anytime. I mean, that was just the nature. The quality of the people that were involved, some of whom are no longer with us, but the quality of the people, dedication and the knowledge.
I mean, it just, it was amazing, which is what attributed to their success as a, as an organization and how they could beat very professional teams that came outta Europe. I mean, Garrett’s an enterprises, they were as good as it got, regardless of who we were up against. And so, [00:13:00] uh. You know when you went to places like Le Mans and in fact John Fitzpatrick that year with the 9 3 5 with that team was very successful across the board.
I mean, when I drove there in 1980, it was raining at the start of the race. It rained for a lot of the race. I remember going at night, now we get to night and the road, you know, it was convoluted. The straightaway, there’s dips and there’s, you name it, and so you’re going down there, you’re thinking, is that a puddle or is that just a shadow?
And you’re going 200 miles an hour, and if you hit a puddle at 200 miles an hour and you’re not really prepared for it, that might have bad consequences. I mean, it was a super challenge in the race. Fitzpatrick and I were running together. I think he was maybe a lap ahead of us at the time, but anyway, right.
It was. Dry at this point, and I was right up underneath his rear wing. The headlights on my car are like bleaching out all the sign writing on his car. They’re so bright, but in the back of his car is literally on fire in the sense that, you know, the exhaust system’s glowing red, the turbos are glowing red.
There’s fire coming outta the turbos and outta the wastegate exhaust, and it was just the most [00:14:00] amazing site. You’re in the middle of the night, so it’s black all around this. Cars all lit up like a Christmas tree. I wish John had a camera. I wish I could have taken a shot ’cause it, it would’ve just been an awesome picture.
John was a tremendous driver, is a tremendous driver. But that team really is what empowered him to have the success he had. And I think he would agree with me on that. I had the benefit of the same people, so. It was a bunch of weekend warriors, but these guys were pretty damn good at what they did, and they could go out and compete against anybody.
Crew Chief Eric: So let’s talk about the 9 35. We had Rick Nup on, yeah. Last year. Who raced Kremmer nine 30 fives. Mm-hmm. Later evolution of the same car you drove, or similar car that you drove. Everybody that’s talked about 9 35 say how unruly they are. They’re just beasts that you got a manhandle for Rick, it sort of suited his driving style, but for you it was at its early stages of development.
What did you think of driving the 9 35?
Bobby Rahal: Well, you know, in 1979 I won a a sports car race with Brian Redman in MidOhio, and a Canadian driver named Vic Heim, who was one of the [00:15:00] real star of Canadian racing. He had a 9 3 5, but it was a single turbo, 9 35. I drove the car and practiced at MidOhio and I thought, oh my God, I don’t know how you drive something like this.
’cause the throttle leg in the car was so bad. One of those, you put your foot down and you count to like five, and then all of a sudden the power comes in. I elected not to drive that car That weekend. Drove with Brian. We won the race two liter sports car, but by 1980 now, they’d all gone to twin turbos and that changed that card dramatically because it now it had response.
The 9 3 5 did several things very well. One. It went like a bat outta hell. You know, it had a lot of power. Two, the brakes were pretty good on it. All of that was mitigated by the fact that it was a basically a nine 11 chassis. I mean, we had a adjustable front roll bar on the car, and I swore that I could move the roll bar wherever I wanted to, and there’d be no difference.
There was probably that much flex in the chassis. I mean, remember it had an aluminum tube roll cage, which you look back now and you think. Good thing. I never had an accident in that [00:16:00] car. ’cause I can’t imagine a aluminum tube roll cage would do much. But the car was a flexi flyer. I mean, it is one of those deals that when you really drove the car, I mean you could drive it with some oversteer in it.
Some of that was induced by power, but some of it was by tuning the car a bit. Was it the best handling car I’ve ever driven? No, but you know, at the time it was the most competitive car and so you wanted to be in a 9 3 5 Porsche. Great story was in, I think it was 1980. In fact, we’re at El Car Lake and I’m in the car and John Fitzpatrick’s in the um, Sox car.
We’re practicing and he’s like, three seconds, four seconds faster than me. And I’m just like, there’s no way. ’cause I’m driving the wheels off it and there’s no way he’s four seconds quicker than me. And I, you know, I was told, oh, you can only go to 1.2 bar barometric pressure on the boost. Well, as you know, Elkhart Lake has three very long straightaways amongst other things, and I think it was before qualifying or, or right after.
But one of the mechanics came up to me and said, you know, John’s using 1.4 bar. Oh really? Yeah. [00:17:00] Yeah. He’s using 1.4. Hmm. Okay. That’s good to know. Thank you for that. So I went out and, uh, in qualifying and of course you could raise the, there’s a, I wanna say a little wheelhouse or whatever. You’d adjust the boost by down by the gear shift.
So what the heck? I’m gonna see what this does. And I didn’t beat John, but I got within a 10th or something of ’em. ’cause now when you go 1.4 bar, now you’re going a lot faster down the strai at one than you are at 1.2 and you’re coming off the corners a lot harder. At 1.4 engine power was. Almost everything in that thing.
So it was the best car to drive at the time. Uh, was it the best car period? No, but it was a great car and uh, we had lots of success in the car and if you treated it right, careful with the gearbox as we did at Daytona in 81, didn’t get greedy with it. I mean, you could have great races in it, as we did at Daytona 81, and it was really a, at the time, just the car to have.
Crew Chief Eric: So let’s switch gears and talk about your second attempt at Le Mans 1982. Let’s
Bobby Rahal: not.
Crew Chief Eric: Porsche at this point had really stopped [00:18:00] producing the 9 35. Right. Although they were continued in private tier entries for a couple more years. Right. They were focusing their attention on the 9 56 and then subsequently the 9 62 after that.
Yeah. However, there was a big shift, especially at Garson Enterprises to move to a March group C car instead of sticking with Porsche and maybe doing a 9 56. Why was that decision made? Do you have any inside baseball on that?
Bobby Rahal: Well first, and you might remember this, that in 81 I drove with Jim Perro Moretti in the Yost.
It was a Moby Dick car. Basically. It wasn’t a factory car, but Yost had built his own version of the Moby Dick right hand drive, which, you know, all the nine three fives were left hand drive ’cause they’re based on a stock nine 11 chassis. But this one was right hand drive. Of course, on road courses, most of those road courses go clockwise.
So you wanna be on the, you know, on the inside of the corners. It was a left hand shift that took a little getting used to. But in terms of pure, probably speed, that was a very, very quick 9, 3, 5. We [00:19:00] didn’t have a lot of success with it. I think we finished second in mid Ohio with it and, and what have you, but it was an amazing car, so that was a thrill.
But, so in 1981, it was clear that the 9 3 5 was pretty much at the end of its line. Lola had come out with a T 600 that Brian drove to a championship win in in IMSA in 81. And that was powered by a six liter Chevy, a normally aspirated stock block. Very strong car. Especially compared to the nine three fives or anything else that was out at the time.
So Garson, Dick Barber, I think everybody was of the view. Why don’t we combine the best of English designers, IE Lola. And with the best of what Germany could provide, which was 9 3 5 engines and gearboxes, they decided we would go to Le Mans with a Lola T 600 powered by a 9 3 5 engine 9 3 5 gearbox. You know, sadly, or whatever.
It’s like anything that just wasn’t given enough time, perhaps not enough resource. But I remember flying, gonna go to Le Mans. I was on my way to Europe to prepare for Le Mans, and they said, come [00:20:00] to Sears Point. And they called it in those days, and now it’s Sonoma.
David Lowe: Mm-hmm.
Bobby Rahal: And they said, come to Sears because we, we wanna do a test with the car before we put it on the airplane to go to Paris.
So, okay, so I fly to San Francisco, drive up to Sears Point, get there and nobody’s there. I’m there, but nobody else is there and I’m waiting, waiting. No transporter, no car, no nothing. Finally at like, I think it was two or three in the afternoon, I’d been there probably six, seven hours at the time. I called ’em up and I said, Hey, what’s going on?
Are we, does this test happen? He said, no. No, we’re not gonna be able to do the test. So I drove to the San Francisco airport and flew over to to Europe. Well, you don’t go to the Le Mans 24 hour with a car that’s never turned a wheel prior to getting there. And that was the case with this car. If you looked at it, you say, oh, this thing, nobody stands a chance.
But it had not turned a wheel, and it’s, of course, now Brian Redmond and I are gonna drive the car. We get to Le Mans, everything’s by all rights, looks like it should, you know, just dominate. Over the couple days, we couldn’t [00:21:00] build up any boost pressure in the car. The intercos leaked and God knows what all else.
And again, it never turned a wheel. Frankly, we couldn’t qualify the car because it wasn’t fast, ’cause it just didn’t generate the power and it wasn’t fast enough. I think probably in the end that probably was a good thing because if it had been running like a 9, 3, 5 engine car should run, it might have killed one of us.
’cause frankly, you know, we’d have gone very, very fast. But very disappointing for everybody, I think. And, and the team had busted their butts working late nights. Again, remember this is semipro team. People working on the car also have jobs during the day, not just working on that. And these people were working all night long and.
It was an experience that everybody looks back now and truly understands why it wasn’t able to perform. You know, very sad. Could have been so good yet it was kind of so bad and in the end we didn’t qualify and went home with our tails between our legs.
Crew Chief Eric: So that was 81.
Bobby Rahal: That was 81
Crew Chief Eric: and 82.
Bobby Rahal: 82. Again, it’s clear that the GTP category is the category.
It was in SA, I mean, we, we [00:22:00] had a March 82, March, GTP cars to drive at Daytona. I said pole position, lap record with the car. Amazingly, we had a great engine, a guy named Franz Weiss. Franz was Jim Hall’s engine builder at Chaparral. He built my engines in IndyCar, Mario Andretti’s engines in IndyCar. I mean Franz Weiss and his company was, and especially stock blocks Can-Am stuff like that.
If not the best, I’m not sure who had been better. Just produced great product. So we’re at Daytona again, six liter Chevy V eight, normally aspirated. And I, I was on pole. I mean, I remember driving past, I think it was Fitzpatrick on the banking. You know, you think the nine 30 five’s fast in a stray line.
But this march with this engine, and of course it was a much smaller frontal area compared to a 9 35, of course, it had instant response with the stock block Chevy, again, set it on pole and amazingly we were like running, I think third overall or so with maybe an hour and a half, two hours at most to go.
And finally the gearbox gave up the ghost. But the fact that it was that [00:23:00] strong in the right, in the 24 hour and was fairly reliable, that caused us to all think a lot about what do you do at Le Mans? You know, we went to Sebring a month and a half later. So again, I set pole position, lap record. That still exists today on the 5.2 mile circuit.
The gearbox was kind of the Achilles heel to the car, but we lost two of the four gears. I think we only had second and fourth. Even with that, and of course a testament to Franz Weiss’s engines. ’cause I go down the back straight at Sebring and it’s like pegged at 8,000 RPMs or whatever. I mean, it, it is just, there was no fifth gear to go to and ’cause it was gone.
And yet, I mean the thing ran and ran. We finished second to John Paul’s 9 3 5 by, I think it was 18 seconds maybe, or eight seconds, something like that. You know, and sea ring was just so tough in those days, physically on the car. So. In any event, his car showed that it could be competitive with anything out there, so we went to Le Mans with it that year.
Crew Chief Eric: At this point, you’re also running Indy cars, right? So when you compare a group C prototype with Downforce and everything else, that’s different than the Indy car, what were they like when you compare and control? Were they similar to [00:24:00] drive or were they horses of a different car? Well, the
Bobby Rahal: Indy cars were faster, even 82.
I mean, they had a lot of power, a lot of downforce lighter. Those cars still had a fair amount of throttle lag. The Indy cars did single turbo. You know, and of course, you know, on a road course, they were considerably faster than anything out there. The Indy car was just a faster race car than IMSA or GTP.
But GTP cars were still great cars to drive. You know, as I tell people, I think the thing that always impressed me when I first started driving Indy cars in 82 was that the car never stopped accelerating no matter how long the straightaway was. Whereas in a sports car, a 9, 3 5 or a March or whatever.
You know, you go to Moison at Lemo, for example, and it basically stopped about halfway down the street, you know, accelerating, just kind of sat there, but, you know, different cars. It’s just the reality. But yeah, the, the March again, you’re talking about a car built by March Engineering. Much more sophisticated than the nine three fives, the chassis design, the componentry, you know, the 9 3 5, in many respects was still a, a [00:25:00] well-developed nine 11, whereas a march was a pure racing car.
And so consequently the performance of the two were different. But in the end, especially in endurance racing, the the nine, the Porsches, the nine three fives had, you know, years of experience, they had reliability. The engines were super reliable. Gearbox was, as long as you were good to them, super reliable brakes were good.
But that’s what made the difference. Whereas the march was really a car that was meant to go at most six hours and to ask it to do more was probably asking too much.
Crew Chief Eric: For those that don’t know how 1982 ended, is that how it ends for the March story at Le Mans?
Bobby Rahal: Well, you know, we split a fuel tank at Le Mans.
Disappointing. Yeah, we got there. We had run outta money. We no longer had Franz license engines. And of course the mul on Straits A along straightaway, if you don’t have any power, you know, we went there and we just didn’t have any grunt. The engine manufacturer we had who will go unnamed, the engines just weren’t good enough.
You know, arrow wise, maybe the march carried a little too much drag in it compared to the Porsches, which you [00:26:00] didn’t really necessarily see a place like Daytona or Sebring, but you’d see it at Le Mans. In any event, you know, we qualified, but not that well. And of course, in the race, the fuel tank split after about three hours and.
That was, that we were done. We, we did run the car, uh, numerous SA races following Le Mans. You know, one of the things we found after Le Mans, which was that Seabring had basically destroyed the chassis. You know, the rivets had in the cock had been loosened up or fell out, or, I mean, the car was not prepared well, again, financially, it wasn’t garson, it was the sponsor of the team.
Ran outta money, and so the maintenance of the car suffered as a result. And of course the different engine builder, all these things contributed to not really having a competitive proposition at Le Mans 82. Of course, then again, the fuel tank splits and very disappointing. I’m not sure we would’ve been as competitive as say we were at Daytona Sebring.
We should have been more competitive than we were in. In any event, we went back to the states, ran a few more races again, with not very good engines, [00:27:00] again, suffered the consequence of that. So the glory races for that car for us at least, was Daytona and Sebring. Now the next year with creepy crawley, they’re the ones that put a 9 3 5 gearbox boxing engine in a march and dominated Daytona and won a lot of races.
And then of course, later on in 84, now I’m driving Bruce Levins 9 6 2 Porsche, one of the first ones. We’re racing against Randall Lanier in the Whittingtons in a march Chevy, and that car had been fully developed and that was the car to have. So the, the March chassis was the right chassis. It’s just we didn’t have the resource to really run it properly and we suffered as a result.
Crew Chief Eric: Did your Le Mans’s journey stop in 82 because of your rise in IndyCar, or were there other attempts to go back to Le Mans over the years?
Bobby Rahal: Oh, well, for the most part, yes, because of IndyCar. The Portland IndyCar race used to always be on the same weekend or thereabouts as Le Mans in June. One of my great what ifs with my great friend, Jochen Moss, who he and I won Sibr together in 87 with the 9 [00:28:00] 6 2, is that he asked me to drive with him and in the Saber, the Mercedes and I think it was 1989, you know, ’cause we had obviously won Sebring together.
We became friends, you know, good co-drivers together, good relationship. I had to say no. And of course that’s the year he won Le Mans, or one of the years he won Le Mans with the Mercedes powered sober. As you can imagine what ifs, right? The thing that kind of disappoints me in myself is that when I started to focus more just on IndyCar racing, I think probably around 19 90, 91, that was a mistake.
Having had the success, I’d had an IndyCar, I’D won the 500. By that time, I’d won a couple championships. I had won Sebring in 87, a number of other SA races in 87. And I don’t know why, but I thought, uh, I just, I’m, I don’t wanna travel that much or something. And I decided not to, to get out of sports car racing.
And I really think I lost opportunities that could have perhaps enabled me to win Le Mans because I really think that would’ve been great to say, you know, you want indie, you, you want Le Mans. [00:29:00] Never won Formula One World Championship. But, you know, those are two pretty good championships to win. In any event, I, I look back and I think, you know, I shouldn’t have done that because as I say, I think I had, I would’ve had opportunities, but it is what it is, you know?
Now for me it’s really about, you know, I want RLL Raul Letterman Lanigan racing to go to Le Mans. Well, I may not be able to win it as a driver. I can win it as a team owner, and that’s certainly something that I’ve been disappointed over the last several years with BMW. We weren’t asked to do that. But you know, maybe one of these days we can go there as a team and, and win the race.
That won’t maybe be quite the same as winning as a driver, but it’ll be pretty nice.
Crew Chief Eric: Since we’re talking about lessons learned, one of the things that a lot of the pro drivers that we have on the show talk about is how Le Mans’s. Profoundly changed them as a driver and the things that they took away, the memories obviously, that they created that enthusiasm.
They reached their bucket list. Yeah, there’s a whole new experience. How did Le Mans change you? What did you learn from it? Lessons, memories that you took back with you to IndyCar [00:30:00] maybe made you a better driver?
Bobby Rahal: Well, I think that. Yeah, Le Mans, especially in the, with the 9, 3, 5, you know, remember it didn’t have a rev limiter.
I mean, it was a synchronous transmission. It wasn’t straight cut gears. It wasn’t like today where the gearings electronically or hydraulically motivated, or, I mean, it was a conventional gear box. It was conventional brakes, and Brian Redmond was really a great teacher for me about this. Is that, you know, this is how you have to drive the car in order to get it to the end of the race, whether it’s Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans, whatever.
And it really did teach me how to get the maximum out of the car. Having minimum, I don’t wanna say consequence, but you know, get the most feet outta the car at the least price to the car. In other words, taking it easy on the brakes, careful on the gearbox, making sure when you make the shift that you’re in gear.
I mean, all these things because you didn’t have the protections that you have today. You know, I remember Redmond telling me that one year he and CFR were. Pretty much ready to win Le Mans maybe in two hours to go [00:31:00] and sit. Missed a gear shift on the front, straight over rev the engine in the nine 17 and it blew up.
And that was that. You know, that was the same with the 9 3 5. I mean, you had to be sure of everything you did and you had to be careful everything you did and you had to drive it carefully as you could go and yet as quick bay as you could go. And that later on with Indy cars and everything else, I drove 9 6 2, whatever that later on was, gave me great experience, great lessons to learn from.
It gave me the success that I had in later years.
Crew Chief Eric: Alright, Bobby, so before we transition into our last segment here, wrapping up this episode, there’s a couple crowd questions for you. Sure. So first off, Ron Meyer writes, can you please ask him about the Otter Pops sponsor?
Bobby Rahal: Well that was IndyCar. Yeah. Paul Pope owned a company called Otter Pops, that’s frozen popsicles, right.
He regrettably passed away a few years ago, but just a great guy. Had a great time with him and he got hooked up with Maury Cranes who owned Kraco, who was the owner of the Kraco team. I went to drive for Kraco in 89. Otter Pops was [00:32:00] one of the associate sponsors. Yeah, we were very popular in the paddock area ’cause we had all the Otter pop bars for everybody.
But yeah, I guess one of the best things about racing over the years for me is uh, and I tell people this, is that you meet really fabulous people. Some aren’t so fabulous, but frankly, most are. And Paul was certainly one of those. Maury Cranes was certainly one of those, and I was fortunate to count them as friends and fortunate to drive for them, and fortunate to have a lot of experiences with ’em.
Crew Chief Eric: Bob Varsha,
Bobby Rahal: oh boy.
Crew Chief Eric: The Bob Varsha wants to know, what advice would you give your son Graham about continuing his driving career when everything else is going so well? And do you see yourself running a Le Mans’s Classic with him?
Bobby Rahal: So first off, in 2005, Graham was running, what do they call it? Uh, Mazda Super Mazda or something like that.
He finished second in Montreal for the Montreal Race Grand Prix. And we got on a plane. I said, we’re gonna go to Le Mans. I really was pushing him to say, one of these days, you’ve gotta go run Le Mans, you gotta do it. So I took him [00:33:00] over there now in 2005. So in oh five he was 16 years old. So we flew over and we didn’t stay for the race, but we flew around and we walked around the track basically, you know, we’re hacking through the bush.
I said, I want you to go down, we’re gonna go down to this place called Re, which is halfway down the Mulsanne Strait, right. And there’s a bar on one side restaurant and, and I said, I want you to go down, we’re gonna go down there. And we got through the bush. Watched the cars go by at 200 miles an hour. Then we went back to the paddock, went up in the Ferris wheel.
Very kind of emotional kind of thing, you know, that all of these sensations that I had experienced over my years that I wanted him to get a feel for and appreciation of, and got up in the Ferris wheel there right by the last chicane and. At night practice. And you know, as I’ve always told him, and I still tell him, I said he’s still a young guy.
He is 36 years old, so he’s got plenty of time if he wants to go there. But there race and Le Mans. What a great experience it was for me. I hope he does it one day. ’cause I think he’ll feel the same way as far as the, uh, Le Mans Classic. I’ve done that twice. Brian Redmond, I, I had a nine 17 Porsche in [00:34:00] 2002. The first Le Mans Classic.
He and I drove that car there. I thought, who better than to get Brian Redmond to co drive with you at, you know, in a nine 17 Porsche. We had mechanical issues, so we didn’t finish, but still a great experience. And later then I went and raced in a three liter Lola prototype. Three or four years later, I’m, I’m done racing, you know, my day’s over and I don’t think Graham’s ready to, I think he always thought I was crazy doing these races with these old race cars.
’cause there’s certainly no safer today than they were in the day, which wasn’t very safe. Right. So. I doubt I can get him into one, but yeah, that, that’s a great event. You know, Le Mans’s a great event. Le Mans classic’s a great event, especially if you love the old historic cars and, and you see many of them.
And, and I was very fortunate. I drove a Fellow’s two 50 LM Ferrari one time there at the Le Mans Classic. The Lola T 2 86 was a three liter DFE Cosworth powered car. Of course the nine 17 and others. So, I mean, Le Mans is Le Mans, it doesn’t matter what’s driving on the track, it’s a hell of an event and a hell of an experience.
Crew Chief Eric: So since you brought up classic, that would’ve been [00:35:00] the new track format because yes, it started way after the redesign. When you compare driving Le Mansn now, let’s say in a classic event compared to then, what do you think of the evolution of the track?
Bobby Rahal: Well, you know, I’m a traditionalist in a lot of ways.
I can understand maybe one of the chicanes, um, za, I’m not sure about two, but I can understand that. I mean, I was fortunate and I feel fortunate to say to people today, oh yeah, no, I drove the real moan, rait. There is no question that the risk factor was high, no question about it. Maybe I feel less concerned about it because nothing ever happened to me on that part of the track, but for sure a lot of risk.
I’m glad we, I experienced that, so I understand why they made the chicanes that Le Mans, but frankly, I think they caused more incidents than they had before. The most disappointing change for me at Le Mans today compared to when I drove is the Dunlop Curve coming up, the front strait, going up the hill underneath the Dunlop Bridge.
It was a, a fast bend that then led down to that left [00:36:00] hand corner. I can’t remember the name of it. I’m not, I’m gonna say Tet Rouge, but I don’t think it is. And that was an amazing corner, you know, fast and yet, you know, really attest, you know, not horribly risky, I would say, but still, just some really great corner and a great sight on the track arcing over the the hill.
And turning right slightly. And that’s gone. And what they’ve got now is, you know, I’m not a big fan of it, but the rest of the track is really not a whole lot different than when I drove it. In fact, when I drove my nine 17 there, you know when you went and came through Mulsanne Corner and went towards Indianapolis, that’s pretty much the same as it was 1970 or 71.
And, and so when I told people, I said, when I went through there, you’re going there 200 miles an hour. And I went through, you know, there’s two kinks, right between Mulsanne and, and Indianapolis and the second one has a little bit more elevation to it. And you go through there, you don’t just squint too much to think it was 1970, it was really right out of the movie Le Mans there, you know, the rest of the track is not a whole lot different, but as I said, I kind of get Mulsanne.
But I really disappointed about the changes [00:37:00] they made at, at.
Crew Chief Eric: So, Bobby, earlier you talked about what ifs, a lot of thinking about what ifs. So what if we could transport Bobby Raha 1980 to 2025? What car would you jump in to run the 24 hours of Le Mans this year?
Bobby Rahal: I think you’d have to say it’s gotta be a Porsche.
You know, the odds are pretty good if you’re in a Porsche. My dad raced at Porsche Carrero six. We had an Elva Porsche, of course I drove the nine three fives, drove 9 6 2, which I did five races in 87 in Imon. I won three of ’em with the 9 6 2, and then I won two other races with 9 6 2. So I mean, it was an amazing car.
And I have the feeling that driving the current Porsche is not a whole lot different, which is why they win a lot of races. ’cause if there’s a company that understands endurance racing, it’s Porsche. If I’m gonna go back and if there’s a car, for sure, a manufacturer would be Porsche.
Crew Chief Eric: So looking back, how do you think your participation in Le Mans contributes to the broader story of your racing legacy?
Bobby Rahal: Well, I think there’s just the fact that I did it again, I wasn’t successful doing it, but you know, I, I was willing to [00:38:00] try just about anything to further my career. And for me, clearly because of my father’s experience racing at Seabring and Watkins Glen, my being there from a gopher to a weekend warrior mechanic, teenager, to seeing the racing, I mean, sports car racing was always very important to me.
Still is last 17 years or 18 years, for me, some of the best has been associated with BMW. In their sports car racing program. We’ve won Daytona twice, won sea ring a couple times, a lot of other races. I mean, I just love sports, car racing, you know, it’s like anything, I don’t think I made Le Mans in any way. I think it made me in in certain ways.
You know, it’s disappointing not to go back to be able to drive there or be a team owner there, at least for the moment, but clearly one of these days. And just being able to tell people my experience going down the mos on straight. Or my experience of going through Indianapolis or any, or the Dunlop Curve.
I mean that to me that I have an experience that few people have, and that’s something that I treasure and it’s something I think has value for people when they’re interested [00:39:00] in talking about great events like the Lamo 24 Hour,
Crew Chief Eric: what’s next? You kind of hinted at a couple things. What’s going on?
Bobby Rahal: Well, I mean, I’m hopeful.
Next is us as a team running at Lamo one of these days. That’s the big goal. Mean, obviously we still want to go win Indy again. We’ve won that three times as a team and for me once as an owner, so four victories at at Indy. Wanna do more of that? I mean, anything we enter, we want to win. But I would love to be able to go back to Le Mans as a team and competitively race against the other teams and.
You know, potentially win that race. Maybe I’d hang it up after that. I’m not sure. ’cause F FDA won India, Daytona and Le Mans. Kinda like, well what else is there? Right.
Crew Chief Eric: On that note, it’s time for me to pass the torch to our A-C-O-U-S-A President for some final thoughts. Bobby? Thank you so much.
David Lowe: It’s been an honor and a pleasure on behalf of the a CO, the A-C-O-U-S-A community.
Thank you. You’re so gracious with your time. Thank you.
Bobby Rahal: Thank you. Well, it’s great seeing you and you know, this is an important event for all of us, right? And, uh, I love talking about it. Wish I [00:40:00] could talk more about it. Wish I had more experience, but I love talking about it. And uh, as I say, one day maybe we’ll be back there.
Crew Chief Eric: We look forward to that.
Bobby Rahal: Thank you,
Crew Chief Eric: and that’s the finish line for this evening with a legend where we took a closer look at the endurance racing chapter of Bobby Ray Hall’s storied career known to most as an indie car legend and team owner Bobby’s Ventures into the 24 hours reveal, a driver eager to push boundaries and compete on the world’s biggest motorsport stage.
Bobby’s experiences behind the wheel and lessons learned in the grueling environment of Le Mans adds yet another layer to his already remarkable legacy. So to keep up with Bobby’s ongoing work in Motorsport, check out ray hall.com or follow Ray Hall Letterman Lannigan Racing on your favorite social media platforms.
And we hope you enjoyed this presentation and look forward to more evening with a legend throughout the season. And on behalf of everyone here and those listening at home, thank you Bobby, for sharing your stories with us.
Bobby Rahal: My pleasure and thank you so much for giving me the time to chat with everybody and with yourselves and, and it’s been a real pleasure.
Crew Chief Eric: And on a [00:41:00] personal note, it has been an absolute honor to interview you tonight. So thank you. Watching you growing up on tv, all those kinds of things. Absolutely amazing.
Bobby Rahal: Thank you. Take care.
Crew Chief Eric: This episode has been brought to you by the Automobile Club of the West and the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiring speed demons that have graced the track to the courageous drivers who have pushed the limits of endurance. The 24 hours of Le Mans is an automotive spectacle like no other. For over a century the 24 hours Le Mans has urged manufacturers to innovate for the benefit of future motorists, and it’s a celebration of the relentless pursuit of speed and excellence in the world of motorsports.
To learn more about or to become a member of the ACO USA, look no further than www.Le Mansn.org, click on English in the upper right corner and then click on the a CO members tab for club offers. [00:42:00] Once you’ve become a member, you can follow all the action on the Facebook group, A-C-O-U-S-A Members Club, and become part of the Legend with Future Evening with the legend meetups.
This episode has been brought to you by Grand Touring Motorsports as part of our Motoring Podcast network. For more episodes like this, tune in each week for more exciting and educational content from organizations like The Exotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring Historian, break Fix, and many others. If you’d like to support Grand Touring Motorsport and the Motoring Podcast Network, sign up for one of our many sponsorship tiers at www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
Please note that the content, opinions and materials presented and expressed in this episode are those of its creator, and this episode has been published with their consent. If you have any inquiries about this program, please contact the creators of this episode via email or social media [00:43:00] as mentioned in the episode.
Highlights
Skip ahead if you must… Here’s the highlights from this episode you might be most interested in and their corresponding time stamps.
- 00:00 Bobby Rahal’s Early Racing Career
- 02:58 First Experiences at Le Mans
- 05:47 Racing with Garretson Enterprises
- 07:32 Challenges and Triumphs at Le Mans
- 14:29 Driving the Porsche 935
- 17:54 Switching to the March Group C Car
- 21:51 Daytona and Sebring Successes
- 23:49 Comparing Indy Cars and GTP Prototypes
- 25:30 Challenges and Disappointments at Le Mans
- 27:34 Reflections on Racing and Missed Opportunities
- 29:36 Lessons from Le Mans
- 31:26 Crowd Questions and Personal Stories
- 37:47 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations
Bonus Content
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Evening With A Legend (EWAL)
We hope you enjoyed this presentation and look forward to more Evening With A Legend throughout this season. Sign up for the next EWAL TODAY!
Evening With A Legend is a series of presentations exclusive to Legends of the famous 24 Hours of Le Mans giving us an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you. By sharing stories and highlights of the big event, you get a chance to become part of the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing.
The Porsche 935 was the car to have in endurance racing at the time – fast, powerful, and notoriously demanding. Rahal recalls its quirks vividly: the early single-turbo versions suffered from severe throttle lag, while later twin-turbo evolutions transformed the car into a more responsive, competitive machine. Despite its flex-prone chassis and aluminum roll cage, the 935 was a proven winner, and Rahal’s stints in the car included pole positions, victories at Daytona, and unforgettable battles at Watkins Glen and Riverside.
At Le Mans in 1980, Rahal joined Garretson Enterprises in a privateer effort. Racing through rain-soaked nights on the original Mulsanne Straight, he experienced firsthand the electrifying atmosphere that makes Le Mans one of the “big three” races alongside the Indy 500 and Monaco Grand Prix. Though mechanical issues prevented a finish, Rahal describes the event as a dream fulfilled – an essential milestone in his racing bucket list.
By 1981–82, endurance racing was evolving. Porsche shifted focus to the 956, while privateer teams explored alternatives. Garretson Enterprises partnered with March Engineering, combining English chassis design with Porsche power. On paper, the March GTP prototype promised speed and sophistication. In practice, it was plagued by reliability issues—gearbox failures, leaking intercoolers, and even a split fuel tank at Le Mans 1982. Despite flashes of brilliance at Daytona and Sebring, the car never realized its full potential.
Rahal reflects on the challenges of racing a car that hadn’t turned a wheel before arriving at Le Mans. For a semi-professional team of “weekend warriors,” the effort was heroic, but the odds were stacked against them. Still, the experience highlighted the passion and dedication of Garretson’s crew, who competed fiercely against factory-backed giants.
Comparing Worlds: IndyCar vs. Le Mans
By 1982, Rahal was also racing IndyCars, offering him a unique perspective on the differences between American open-wheel machines and European endurance prototypes. IndyCars, lighter and more powerful, never stopped accelerating, while sports cars plateaued halfway down the Mulsanne. Yet both demanded precision, adaptability, and courage – qualities Rahal embodied throughout his career.
Though Rahal never claimed a podium at Le Mans, his participation remains a testament to his versatility. He bridged the gap between American open-wheel success and international endurance prestige, proving that true racers thrive wherever the challenge lies. His stories of rain-soaked straights, glowing turbochargers, and the camaraderie of dedicated privateer teams capture the essence of what makes Le Mans legendary.
ACO USA
To learn more about or to become a member of the ACO USA, look no further than www.lemans.org, Click on English in the upper right corner and then click on the ACO members tab for Club Offers. Once you become a Member you can follow all the action on the Facebook group ACOUSAMembersClub; and become part of the Legend with future Evening With A Legend meet ups.
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