The Great Equalizer – AutoCross!

• For many folks AutoCross has been a gateway, or transition into Motorsports. For some, they went from Karting to AutoCross to Track and beyond. How do you get into AutoCrossing?
• When you see an AutoCross “course” it can be a bit intimidating, people often joke that it’s just “a sea of cones” but there is a reason/purpose for the layout.
• One of the most important things every AutoCrosser learns is to “visualize the track” and that oftentimes comes in the form of walking the course, why is this so important?
• When you really get into AutoCross, it can become really complex, from the Timing/Scoring, Classing and especially the car prep side, let’s explore this. 
• Is AutoCross safe?
• There are other variants of AutoCross, like Pro-Solo and TrackCross – expand on the differences? 
• Like in circuit racing (ie: Track) we have our favorite and least favorite “tracks” is the same true of AutoCross? Aren’t all Parking Lots the same?

and much, much more!

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Gran Touring Motorsports podcast Break Fix, where we’re always fixing the break into something motorsports related. On this episode of Break Fix, we’re going to chat about a discipline of motorsports where outsiders often ask What in the world is going on over there? You know, the one that form of racing many of us started with, where you attempt to navigate your car through a defined course made above orange traffic cones on a large parking lot composed of tight technical layouts.

These races put handling and driver ability above engine output and outright top speed. So if you haven’t guessed by now, we’re going to be exploring the world of autocross, also known as Solo, with my guest, Tom Hill and Todd Lilly, both seasoned S C C A, autocrossers here to help us really understand what is autocross.

So welcome to Break Fix, Tom and Todd. Hello. Hi. Thanks. Good to be here. Did you guys know that when S C A [00:01:00] started in the mid 1940s, you know, just at the tail end of World War ii, some of the first events they held were time trials known then as autocross? No, I didn’t. Did not know that. But as we said in the intro, outsiders looking at an autocross for the first time are thinking, what are these cars doing?

Driving around a parking lot with a bunch of cones? Is this some sort of driver education program, defensive driving clinic? How would you guys explain autocross to somebody that’s never seen it before? First of all, you know, my mom, she, you know, it’s like, oh, you do autocross. I. I thought you drove your car on pavement.

Everything. Everybody thinks motocross or something and they’re like, oh, you, it’s like dirt bikes, right? I mean, that’s the first one you gotta dispel. Absolutely. But the, uh, other items you mentioned, driver training, safety and all that, I was sort of classified as all the above. The stuff we do out there teaches you skills that are actually useful in avoiding accidents and being a better driver on the road.

Plus it, you know, gets all of that driving excitement out of your system so you’re more mellow, uh, [00:02:00] driver on the road. So when I was growing up, people always used to say, autocross is all about precision driving. And nowadays, if you say that, they go, wait, you mean drifting? They’re not the same thing. The, and well, the precision part.

I mean, you’re, you know, sometimes you’ll be classed or ranked the thousands of a second or even better, you know, so it, it’s absolutely a little wobble or a sneeze and there goes first place. Some of my other friends, I say, Hey, you know, how fast can you do a U-turn? That’s pretty much all, you know, it’s like, how fast can you avoid a pedestrian?

Can you do a u-turn? Can you, can you do those things? You know, cuz they’re like, man, how fast do you go? Your car looks so fast and you’re like, well, it’s like 25 miles an hour in a, in a street car maybe. And not to be confused with another discipline of motorsport, which actually falls under the rally category and partially drift, which is Jim Kana, which is also sometimes done on large parking lots.

But those are larger defined courses with walls and barriers and as we refer to it in autocross, one cone turnarounds, like they’re going around a hay bale, things like that. So we wanna make sure that people understand what [00:03:00] autocross is, is really about here. Like you mentioned, lots of traffic cones.

It’s a bit of a, uh, a mental exercise. I mean, if you’re on a track, you’ve got a fairly defined area, right? You’ve got the pavement and you’ve got the grass. Uh, you typically wanna stay off the grass. Well with autocross, the course is actually laid out in that big parking lot and, and it’s in the cones.

The cones really don’t define the course per se, you know, they’re the limitations and all that sort of thing, but the course actually is in there. You have to be able to go out there and walk the course. Understand, you know, what the path is gonna look like and be able to develop some vision there. And that’s one of the more challenging aspects of it, I think.

Absolutely. And we’ll explore that more as we get deeper into the conversation. Let’s kind of talk about beginnings. You know, there’s always an origin story. In this case, we’re not gonna talk necessarily about the history autocross. Let’s talk about your guys’ history in autocross. So, for many folks, autocross has been a gateway into other motorsports.

I mean, Brad and I, and unfortunately Brad isn’t here with us on this episode. I know he loves autocross. We autocross through [00:04:00] high school and college. You know, I grew up with my dad being a national pro solo champ, things like that. So I was always around the autocross course, but it led me to other things.

It led me into time trials. It led me into track and H B D E and all these other kinds of things. And for other folks, maybe they started in carting and found their way into autocross. How did you guys get into autocross? Let’s start with Todd. Well, you know, I was in California and doing, uh, Pseudo motorcycle racing.

I drive at about 110%, but I have about 89% skill. So, you know, a separated shoulder and some other, other broken bones and stuff. And they had a autocross club at where I worked that they set up in the parking lot. Same thing. What, what are you guys doing? You’re driving around some cones. And then, you know, I got out of motorcycles and then had a 97 TransAm v8 and took it out there and spun it around, dig donuts, slid all over the place and went really slow.

Right? And that, and that’s how, you know, and then it went to e s P. So then you had, you know, sticky tires and started [00:05:00] throwing money at suspension and brakes and training. Of course lots of training, lots of seat time. So it really was, wanted to save my skin going from motorcycles to some other sort of cheaper, you know, I, I looked at racing, but you know, I couldn’t even afford, I was run, had a production class Ninja two 50, right?

Which is basic beginner motorcycle. And even just keeping that going, I was like, man, that. I don’t know that I want to get into actual racing, going to the racetrack, putting that additional time into it. So, I mean, that, that’s how I got started. Would you say that that’s what attracted you to the sport is maybe getting out of motorcycles?

The risk had become too high and then it was like, Hey, I’m more protected. Four wheels, this seemed safer, or was it something else? Well, you know, and also in California, I, I’d gone to Thunder Hill quite a bit, Laguna Seka and on the motorcycle. So it was, you know, big, long, straight. You’re set up for the corner, you’re waiting, you’re waiting, turn set up for the next corner.

You’re big, long, straight. You’re waiting, you’re waiting. You know, I really enjoyed the cornering and the G-force is, autocross is just all corners. If there’s any [00:06:00] straight, you know, somebody messed up the course or, or it’s like a 4th of July course or something where, you know, they say, oh, you know, we’ll let you get up to 75 miles an hour or something.

But don’t tell anybody. So, Tom, how about you? How did you get into auto crossing? A long time ago, a friend of mine, uh, his dad was doing this auto cross bent and I had a, uh, a 1980 Honda Accord that I had, you know, worked on, put bigger tires on that sort of thing. So, you know, my initial auto crosses were, were back in those days, back in the, in the mid to late eighties.

And I, I ran some and then, uh, sort of gave it up later on. This is probably about 15 years ago, I was, uh, thinking about building some other, another car, but then I had sort of had this crisis of conscious where I was thinking, What am I gonna do with this car? Once I build it? It’s gonna be some kind of fast hot rod.

You can’t really rip up and down the, uh, highways and byways anymore. There’s too much traffic. So I thought, well, hey, what I’ll do is start auto crossing again. I actually got rid of the project cars that I had, and I went out and bought a, a C4 [00:07:00] Corvette and started auto crossing. The thing I like about it is I, I’ve done some track days, you know, those are fun, but, but I’m, I’m with you, Todd.

It’s kind of compared to autocross, it’s, I don’t wanna really say boring, but the autocross, like you say, is all turn all the time. I mean, you’re either setting up or you’re turning or you’re speeding up, you’re slowing down tracks. A lot of times, you know, you go to the turn, you turn in, you hit the apex, you accelerate.

I mean, it’s fun, but it’s just the pace is a little slower. Plus it seems to be harder on the car, on the track. Almost every time I would go do a track day, I would come back and have to replace brakes. Plus with autocross, I’m lucky we’ve got a good site here locally. I can go autocross and come home and mow the grass.

You can go get your uh, you know, motorsports on, but still be home in time for dinner. Let’s settle A little debate between the track guys and the autocross guys. Cause I know we’ve all dabbled in both and you hear the arguments both ways. To your point, Tom, oh, it’s a little bit slow, it’s a little bit boring, this and that.

It’s repetitive being at the track, but then you hear the same thing about the track guys talking [00:08:00] about autocross. I gotta wait around all day for three runs that are gonna be a minute or less. And if you’re lucky to, to Todd’s point, some of these 4th of July courses that are minute and a half long, oh my God, that’s, that’s a stretch for an autocross.

I don’t wanna say which is better. Which is right. Maybe they both are, maybe they, they both have their pluses and minuses, right? Oh yeah. I feel like any people that are involved in motor sports, That’s drag racing, drifting track stuff, autocross. I mean, they’re all part of the family and I think, like you said, they all have their pluses and minuses and certain things appeal to certain people.

I’m not saying track stuff’s boring. I’ve never actually done any wheel to wheel racing, so I would imagine that would be pretty exciting as well. You know, I was out doing the. The track day. So, you know, you’re just out there kind of goofing off when you get right down to it. You gotta like picking up cones if you want to do all the I like hitting them.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but I think that really, that working the course gives you an opportunity to stand out there and watch what other people are doing. You know, I find that [00:09:00] that actually helps me do better when I’m driving the course. If I get to watch a bunch of cars go by, and especially if you’re in one of the tricky corners, you get to see what works and what doesn’t work.

I’m with you. I mean, all across hell, I, I went one time to an event in Georgia. I drove, uh, eight and a half hours to get down there. Like I said, I’m gonna get six runs there, 30 seconds, 40 seconds pop. Well, my accelerator pedal broke on the first run, so I got about 30 seconds of driving for my, you know, 16 hours worth of transit time.

Go on there. So a regular, regular autocross then, huh? Yeah, no. Oh, that was so frustrating. But when I, the first time I went to nationals, we ran outta daylight when I was running my class, but, I burned a tank of diesel fuel for each run that I got on the course at National. Geez. So it took me five tanks of diesel to get there and back.

So, yeah. You know, I, I understand, but I do feel like those 30 seconds, 45 seconds, 62nd runs, I mean, it is, Pure excitement the whole time. It [00:10:00] is full send, as we call it, around here. There is no room for error and you are pedal to the metal, that’s for sure. That’s what I like about it. Of course, I haven’t ever done wheel to wheel, so I’d like to, I did some lemons and I, you know, it’s sort of like what you’re saying, that the autocross is continuous Absolutely.

At the edge of your seat. And I did, you know, lemons wheel to wheel sort of, you know, the difference between uh, track days where you just set up, turn in apex and you know, gas are on the way out, wheel to wheel. You’re like, oh, I need to get around this car and then still make the corner. So it’s like, okay, I’m gonna do a Chicago box around to that guy.

Oh, the car is sliding a little bit. I slide my car all the time in autocross so I know what’s going on. And then, you know, changing different lines and stuff. So I think the autocross experience really helps out all of your screw ups on the racetrack. Every time I’ve screwed up, you know, it’s been like, oh, well I’m sliding.

I know it happens next. Right. You know, but if it was just racetrack experience, I’m like, oh, I do not wanna slide. I don’t wanna. Change lanes suddenly. I don’t wanna, [00:11:00] whatever, where autocross gives you the chance to do all that stuff, reasonably safe, put ’em together and it’s pretty fun. Unless it, you know what I mean?

But yeah, I do, I do. And, and it can be summarized in a small phrase, which is car control. Every discipline of motorsport brings something else to the table. And I always approach motorsports as this broad brush thing that you can learn something from every discipline and it makes you a more well-rounded driver.

For instance, if you started in carts, what do they teach you? Other than that, carts are really slow compared to anything else you’re ever gonna drive except for Miata. But we’ll get into that. I gotta take a pot shot at Tom a little bit. What I’m getting at here is, It teaches you Racecraft. That’s one of the best places to learn how to be in a pack of other cars like a Spec Miata race.

As you grow into motorsport, things like that, autocross brings car control, which to your point, Todd, when you’re in a on a racetrack and the car suddenly breaks loose on you, it becomes instinctual how you’re gonna react to that, you know? And, and rally brings different things. They all bring something to the [00:12:00] table.

So, like I said before, I don’t know if one is necessarily better than the other, so much as they’re all stepping stones to where we want to go. Eventually. I don’t know what everybody’s goal is gonna be different. Some people live in the world of autocross forever. So let’s kind of expand upon that and talk about.

How do you get started in autocross? What does it take to get going? What do you really need? Are there schools and how do you get better at this particular sport? What you need is a checkbook, a pulse, and a car with a good battery hold down and that right there will get you started in autocross. Well, there’s about 50 of those at the Hertz rental lot.

So, uh, yeah, yeah, just make sure the battery’s tied down. That’s the, seems to be the number one thing that flunks people on tech inspection, but to me it’s all about showing up and doing it. There are plenty of schools, the group that I ought cross with is very good about helping people out, and that’s one thing I’ve noticed amongst the autocrossers is, you know, you’re fighting the clock when you get right down to it and people are just very willing to help out.

I mean, they’ll help their competitors out if their [00:13:00] car breaks and they’re like, here’s the part you need, put it on. Let’s go a benevolent organization, if you will. They’re, they’re looking to help so the local people can help get you started. We have a driving class. Our, uh, club does the EVO schools that they do before most of the national events.

So there’s lots of ways to get training. But the whole key is really just getting out there and getting behind the wheel and doing it too, it, the Evo schools, you know, you’re throwing a little bit of money at it, but like you said, autocross, I would jump into anybody’s car. Not that I’m, you know, know what I’m doing, but I mean, anybody that has an idea where to go could jump into anybody’s passenger seat and just point and say, okay, you left.

Well, you know, look to the right or whatever and give somebody directions, whereas, A track day, I’m probably not gonna jump in your car and, you know, and, and let you go full, you know, so autocross, you can have somebody sitting in the passenger seat telling you where to go, what to do, and how to do it, basically.

So I gotta give a shout out though, the era that Tom came up in same era that my dad came up in and autocross, he went to the Dick Turner Autocross School. You could still find a lot of those classic [00:14:00] eighties autocross training videos out there on YouTube and whatnot. We’re gonna link to that in the show notes, so shout out to them.

But to your point, there’s the Evo schools, a bunch of other ones. If you wanna learn really about autocross, you show up, like you said, with 50 bucks or whatever it is, and, uh, car with a battery that’s tied down, really. You just gotta show up. You’ll show up and there’ll be somebody there with, you know, their mom’s tcell or what you see kids bringing out their, whatever, you know, whatever their parents happen to have, and bring it out there and drive it and see what happens.

Autocross seems to be a little bit more open than say, track events where, you know, we have the broomstick test and this test and it can’t be a convertible and this other thing and up and down in P D Q and it can’t be an S U V, you know, all that kind of stuff. It’s more inviting. You got a card to your point and it’s got a battery tie down, let’s go.

Let’s have some fun. And even the coaching style isn’t nearly as formal. Right? I don’t ever hear about certified autocross coaches like there are on the track side of the world. You know, everything’s so regimented and political. Uh, when you go to the track world, right? It’s very different, but obviously the speeds are [00:15:00] higher, safety’s a bigger concern, you know, things like that.

We’ll dive into the safety of autocross as we go through the conversation, but that’s good to know, right. Just run what you brung as they used to say. Right. Come out, have a good time, and learn something new. And that’s usually when you get bit by the autocross bug. It’s almost like, like I’ve said before, it’s like golf, right?

17 really crappy holes. And it’s that one run, that one hole that makes a difference and then it brings you back every time. Right? I’ll echo it again. The first time you’re driving on the street, after you’ve been autocrossing for a while, if something happens and you put your autocross skills to use to avoid an accident, you’re like, Hey, you know, this is worth it from, uh, not just a fun perspective, but you know, staying alive on the, uh, on the, on the streets, on the mean streets.

Right. My wife also drives a gt O with me, co drives it. And you know, she had a Jeep Cherokee daily driver. California, of course all the best drivers out there. Not on the freeways though. So you know, some sort of freeway snafu. You know, somebody parks their car in front of her and [00:16:00] she, you know, does basically a Chicago box with a Jeep Cherokee and she says, man, that guy that, you know, he pulled out in front of me, you know, cuz it was on an on-ramp, right on-ramp stuff going.

She’s like, I noticed I was on the gas as I was, you know? Right. So she ga gassed it out, you know, the Jeep started to lean a little bit. She just gassed it and, you know, added steering input and she’s like, so I noticed I had my foot on the floor going around the OnRamp. I was like, That’s good. You didn’t run into anybody.

You didn’t flip junky, old 200,000 mile Jeep. If she had not been autocrossing, that would’ve likely been an accident. Yeah, absolutely. I was happy she raced with me. And I think the thread we could pull out of that is one of the things that autocross teaches you, even though the speeds aren’t nearly as high as say like a track lap, is that you find the limit of your vehicle very quickly and then you can work backwards from that.

And so even at that lower speed, you know, kind of limited, let’s say the second gear, third gear on, on some courses, on some lots. I mean, you can still get the car outta shape and then learn how to walk back from that, which is really, [00:17:00] really good. Definitely learn the limits of braking. I mean, you definitely learn the limits of breaking and you know, breaking and steering that they don’t normally go together.

You mentioned that in Chicago boxes, Todd, I remember, I can remember. You know it’s funny, maybe you had a similar experience, but I remember the day that the autocross thing slowed down for me. I was charging into a Chicago box. I was breaking a hundred percent. I was turning a hundred percent. So that means I was basically going straight, I was heading towards the back of the box.

And you know, these things aren’t that big. And I remember having the thought, you know, Hey knucklehead, take your foot off the brake. And I did. And the car turned. But it, it was weird because normally by the time I would’ve had the thought about taking my foot off the brake, I would’ve been through the back of the Chicago box making the workers run.

It was literally like a, almost like a switch flip, where suddenly at that point forward, the cones weren’t coming at me as quickly. I mean, it just slowed down. But you guys mentioned something a couple times, the Chicago box, and people are probably thinking, what is this? What is this box? There’s boxes on the parking lot now.

It’s a [00:18:00] type of gate. And so autocross uses a series of gates, you know, um, decision cone gates, slaloms, increasing, decreasing, all these kinds of things. And so we outlined that as well. There’s a link in the show notes that to kind of better explain what our guests here are talking about tonight. But what I wanna kind of address is when you see an autocross course, It’s really intimidating.

People often joke that it’s just a sea of cones and there is a rhyme and reason to this layout and that’s the point that I’m getting here too. When we’re talking about Chicago boxes and Slaloms and so on. Obviously the goal is to navigate the course any way you can as quickly as possible. And Tom alluded to this, the cones kind of define the boundary, but not necessarily the path you need to take.

What should someone expect to learn or get out of this discipline of autocross and how do you reshape it based on driving style and car and things like that? Some courses like, you know, I’ve done good guys and my company they used had a real small lot. I mean, some courses are literally a sea of [00:19:00] cones and the only line you can really drive is.

Inside of those cones, but it’s really hard to tell where the corners are because there’s so many cones and you just, you get lost the, the cone in the front versus the cone in the back. And we’re gonna talk about walking the course, but I mean, sometimes you have so many cones that you know you really need to pay attention.

As far as your preparation for the course. The first field that you have to develop, you’re gonna succeed at autocross is making sure you’re in control of your i’s and where you’re looking. So, you know, when you look at that sea of cones, there may be 25 cones out there that are defining a couple of features you’re gonna have to go through, but there’s probably gonna be like five or six of those cones that you really need to be paying attention to, separating the week from the chap and just training your eyes to look ahead.

All across speeds, say 30 miles an hour, you’re going about 45 feet per second. So if you’re looking close to the front of the car, if you’re not looking 50 feet ahead, You’re essentially looking at stuff that’s already happening. First primary school thing I harp on when I’m talking to [00:20:00] uh, a novices is make sure that you’re looking in the right place.

And to your point, Tom, you mentioned earlier about working the course and watching from that vantage point. When I would work the course, I would always laugh because I could always tell when somebody was driving what we call gate to gate, they could only see the gate that’s basically right in front of the car and they couldn’t see the path in front of ’em.

Somehow. They like a rat finding the cheese at the end of the maze. They made it to the end without going off course and, and all that kind of stuff. It’s just interesting how we all visualize the course differently. And I always felt, and I don’t know about you guys, if you ever done the events where they chalk the boundary of, of the course, I feel like that’s cheating.

Like it just makes it too easy. But it seems like when we do that, there’s always a few places where the chalk, it winds up going away because. That’s not really a boundary on the course, it’s just sort of a guideline. That’s right. And, uh, you know, you probably, uh, uh, need to go out a little bit to, uh, get around a particular cone.

So, uh, so I’m with you. Sometimes I feel like the chalking of it causes a problem cause people think [00:21:00] that that is a boundary. Sometimes, you know, they’ll throw in an extra cone just to create that boundary, or they’ll throw in, uh, a cone of 10 or 15 feet back from the alleged apex as opposed to on what would be a good apex.

So, I mean, sometimes, of course, designers, they’re not throwing out cones there to give you the nice, pleasant experience. You know, some of those guys are good at making you, uh, Envision some sort of a magic cone or, or your imaginary cone or whatever in Chicago box, or a slalom or whatever you need to get from, you know, one element to the other and then tie ’em together in some sort of a fashion that is conducive to a good time.

And that’s actually a really good point that you bring up because I find myself doing that at track days as well, especially in time trials, which we’ll elaborate on in a little bit here, is that I almost visualize that there are cones on certain tracks. I mean, we could use Shenandoah circuit at Summit Point as a prime example.

There’s parts of that track that you would ignore, just like if it was a slalom at an autocross. And so, [00:22:00] You have to reshape the course. Sometimes it’s not just about tracking apex and track out it’s, my car doesn’t wanna do this this way. I need to reshape the boundary, utilize the asphalt I have available and make, pretend that there’s one of these cone like obstacles there to kind of set up the car mentally.

So being able to visualize that is super important. Obviously, you know, we touched on the fact that autocross teaches you car control. The basics of under steer, over steer neutral, steer, all that kind of stuff. I think there’s more to it than that. It’s all about steering input more than anything, and there’s a bigger debate to be had, which is fixed versus shuffle.

So who wants to take that on with the chuckle? They both chuckled at this one. I like to set my cars up with fast steering so that, uh, I may be able to, uh, not, I can, you know, not have to shuffle. I find that I, when I do have to shuffle, I tends to set up earlier in the turn. So I think I use kind of a hybrid approach of the two techniques.

I would have to agree that knowing where your hands are at all the time, you [00:23:00] know, I’m not one of the guys that that will pretzel my arms over each other trying to do the turn, but having the race car steering wheel with the little red stripe out, you know, this way up. Type deal. You know, it’s always good to know which way you’re going, and that’s just your natural, you know, return to center point as far as how much turning you’re do doing.

But being a GT O Pontiac guy, you really gotta know how to shuffle because if you can’t do a donut and go and still put in a good time and autocross. A good time on the clock, then you know you’re really not driving and that takes shuffle. So I agree with both of you that I think there’s a hybrid approach to this and watch anybody’s in-car video, whether it’s an autocross or track event.

The first thing they’re gonna comment on is your hand placement. And it’s like, well first of all, do we get through there safely and do we get through there fast? Yes. So it doesn’t really matter. I mean, I could sit here and watch Pro racers. I, I’ve commented hundreds of times about Hurley Haywood and Hunch Stook and Terry Neville, and they shuffle, but then they don’t, but then they do.

And to your point, I think it all [00:24:00] depends on the situation, the coroner, where the car is, if you’re trying to react to it, things like that. But I believe there’s a third option. And to your point, it’s about presetting your hands and then basically putting the steering wheel exactly where you want it and then bringing it back to center.

And so it’s a mix of both fixed and shuffle steering. And I’m sure we could do an entire episode on that by itself. But I wanted to bring it up because it’s important that autocross teaches you about hand placement. And then after that, Well first eyes hand placement and then it’s all throttle control at that point.

Cuz some cars you are gonna throttle, steer. And Tom, that’s especially important in your little Miata. Absolutely. Well I had a Corvette that was, uh, a big throttle steering car as well. There’s multiple facets that have to be sort of mastered or at least you gotta get reasonably good at it, you know, I think it’s a challenge that goes on.

I mean, I’ve been doing this for, you know, like I said, 13 years now. And I still feel like I have plenty of improvement to go, I have firmly proven to myself, to my competitor that I’m a slightly above average driver. [00:25:00] I like the way you put that. That was very well done. So, uh, you know, I keep trying to get better.

I, I think I do. I get a little better every year. To me, that’s kind of what’s so interesting about it. And I see these people that come in and are naturals and just come in and go from novices to winning. In a couple of seasons and, you know, most of those folks move on and do something different. I, I guess they feel like they’ve mastered it, they get bored.

Uh, I have not gotten bored yet. That’s a good thing. Yeah. Being mediocre means you need to hang out longer to, your claim to fame is that you’ll be around long enough that all the people that beat you might die before you. Well, and I mean, I’m there with you. I’m waiting. So we, we have a guy, unfortunately he did pass away, uh, year before last, but he was well into his eighties.

He was, uh, still autocrossing with us. He went as fast as he was. He had autocross for a long time. But you know, it was still kind of fun because, you know, young guys would come in and, and they’d race in his class and you know, he’d beat ’em by two seconds and which [00:26:00] is in the eon. And I always wanted to go over to him and say, Hey man, you realize that your granddad or maybe even your great-granddad just beat you at autocross.

So I thought it was kind of fun that this guy could come out. He would put his age as his number on the car and then he stopped. Cause he was worried people were gonna get, you know, kind of nervous when it was like 89 or 90 on the car. But, you know, he did this for a lifetime, you know, and I think that’s pretty cool.

We’ve hinted at this earlier in the episode, one of the most important things every autocrosser learns outside of the car control and things we just discussed, is how to visualize the course. Right? And that requires you to do something that Todd mentioned, which is walking the course. Why is walking the course so important?

Why should you not skip out on that? First of all, I mean, it’s not a racetrack or a drag strip. You’ll likely never see the same. Autocross course twice. So that means you got three runs at the least. So there’s your minute and a half total to throw down your, you know, your first place run. [00:27:00] So you gotta go in with a plan because you know you’re never gonna see that exact same course, likely never see it again.

Definitely won’t be the same pavement temperature, same tires, same whatever. So the, the walk is the very first part of trying to memorize that course and coming up with a plan that you try to execute on that f very first run. You don’t have a warmup run, you don’t have a bunch of sighting laps. There’s no time trials.

You get three to five runs, six. I mean, it depends on the club, but you know, nationals is, is three runs. Right. So you get three to get it done. Yeah. If you get out and blow it on your first run, then the heat is on. You gotta get out there and eyeball the course. To me, it, it always seems, you know, most of the national stuff flows pretty good, but there’s always a couple places you’re gonna need to do something.

That I say is unnatural, and you gotta identify those places and have a plan to get through those features. And typically, those are the ones where maybe there’s not a lot of points of reference, things like that. Those are the features that win or lose the event. [00:28:00] And that’s something I still struggle with, is really coming up with a plan that, you know, survives first contact with the course.

Uh, you know, I’m, I’m always mooching off of the guys, find out who drives well and who will put up with me, right? That’s another, that’s a smaller group of people. And then start bugging those guys and walking the course walks with ’em, you know, and they normally walk right where they’re driving. Uh, you know, the guy I happen to be hanging out with now, you know, I’ll be like, Hey, I, I don’t think you really know the course.

Maybe you can talk through it while you’re walking, which fine. But then, you know, we’ll get back to the start and he’ll say, okay. Repeat the course back to me, right. And I’m be like, I don’t, I think there’s a left somewhere, you know? And he’ll say, okay, you know, you’re, you know, and he goes through the whole course in his head without looking at the course, and he says it out loud to me what he’s gonna do late Apex, early apex, when he is gonna break what, you know, what he is looking at, which corner he’s gonna throw away.

And he, you know, just blurts it out. And he says, okay, let’s walk again. And then I’ll repeat about half the course and then we’ll walk again. I’m a slow learner. So then [00:29:00] after maybe three times I can say my plan out loud. And then at least when I get in the car, I have a plan. It might not be the plan, but you, you gotta have a plan when you get in the seat.

I’m with you. It’s, it’s, to me, it’s like you, um, hopefully won’t make any huge mistakes. So you sort of chip away at the time, you know, that’s the thing, when, when I get data, compare it with people who drive faster than me, typically. It’s not one huge mistake, but I need to correct. They’re just a little bit faster.

Everywhere. Finally have realized that it’s all about chipping away. It’s about, you know, you save half a second by finding tents in the hundreds, literally of a second out there on the course. And that’s what separates the winners from the losers. They’re getting on the gas just a smidge earlier than you, which gives them a couple more miles per hour leaving the corner and a couple more coming into the corner and yeah.

Right. Placement for the right speed. Yep. So on average, how many times do you guys walk the course? Well, depending on the course and length, and if they allow bicycles, I mean, the. The course I’m at now, I, you know, you can walk it three times [00:30:00] pretty quick and easy. When I was racing on, uh, the, uh, backup for the shuttle landing airfield, they allowed bikes.

So you’d ride your bike maybe twice and you, you know, you’re, that’s enough exercise for the day, right. So, I mean, if you can walk it two times my minimum. Mm-hmm. I don’t know about you, Tom. I walk in as many times as I can stand it. I went to an event in Bristol, Tennessee a while ago and had my, uh, you know, my handy Danny Apple watch on there.

And it was a pro solo low, it was a four day event and over those four days, I, I believe it was, I walked on almost 30 miles. It was crazy cause we walked and walked and walked the courses and we were in the situation where we could actually walk it sort of during the event once. So yeah, I, I will walk it as many times as I can.

So do you guys also use maps? Do you make notes? Anything like that? I don’t. I try to just, like I said, when I’m out there walking the course, I’m trying to figure out where I’m gonna be looking, and I find if I’m looking in the right place, the path sort of works itself out. I don’t have to be totally focused on that.

If I’m just looking in the [00:31:00] right place, things tend to fall in place. But there are, like I mentioned, Typically two or three, four places that you’re gonna have to do something that might seem, you know, a little weird. And I bring up the map and I don’t normally express my opinions when I’m at a track event, but I usually smirk when people are handed a map of the course.

I’m like, you can see that the turn goes left. I mean, I, I don’t know what you need a map for, and I understand why it’s okay, but when you get to an autocross, I feel like you’re Po de Leon owned looking for the Fountain of Youth. You need some sort of reference sometimes when you’re standing in the Chicago box and you turn around and go, where the heck am I in this sea of cones?

I just wanna express to people that there’s these other tools that you can use, right? Obviously there’s software you can use now on your, your smartwatch to map out the course if you need to see it that way. Make notes, you know, there’s paper maps always available, but walking the course, the more you repeat it to your guys’ point is the way it’s gonna cement it into your head.

But it also draws a very interesting parallel to another form of motorsport, which is rally. Right. If you look at World Rally to Todd’s point, [00:32:00] they never see the same course twice, and they have a set of hieroglyphs for notes with a navigator telling them where to go. But autocross and rally are very similar in that you get one sighting pass in a passenger car to figure out where the course goes, and then you’re supposed to, you know, do the whole thing in 130 miles an hour wide open.

It translates. It’s kind of interesting how, again, the, there’s crossover between autocross and other disciplines of, of motorsport out there. Tom uses some sort of data. I have some sort of data thing, you know, and I tried carrying that around once and then I. Sort of looking at the map that distracted me.

I, you know, I know a, a couple guys that are really good at it, they take a video around the course. They’re just, as they’re walking, they take the video and it’s, it’s a really good time to interject funny stuff into their video and moon them or whatever. But one guy I know does that has video. Another guy, you know, cause you’re going to the same place over and over.

He’ll have, you know, like a Google photo or a Earth View photo or something and he just draws the map in real quick. My former workplace, they [00:33:00] would set up the course with a map to known course. You could just have the printed off copy of the map and, and what they actually laid out. I think, not nationals, but some events have maps of the course that you can at least take a note and say, oh, I wanna remember break here, or whatever.

You know, I’m trying to always try to keep things in my memory, but I don’t have time to look at ’em, write ’em down or watch video. But maybe that works for somebody else. I think that overhead map, you know, you don’t get the same sort of visual. Picture to do when you’re, when you’re driving or walking the course.

It can even be a little bit weird going from the walk to the drive too, depending on, you know, how low your car is, those sorts of things. Like I said, I’m always mooching off of people that are driving better than me. And first guy that she, he’s like, okay, you’re like six, whatever, you know, I’ll tall. Are you sitting in that Trans Am?

And I’m like, I’m about belly button height. He’s like, okay, squat down, you know? And he’d point, you’d say, okay, see that dip in the road? And you see the, so yeah, def, it’s definitely different at different heights and different speeds and yeah, all of this is very true, but I’m coming at this from behind the [00:34:00] scenes because my dad was a big autocrosser.

He was also autocross chair for different regions and different clubs and things like that. I always got to see it from the Friday night after dinner as he sat down with an 11 by 17 sheet of paper and mapped out what the course. That he was gonna design. To your point, Todd, about follow the fast guys, here’s another top tip.

Go ask the course designer for the map and what he was thinking when he drew it on a piece of paper because he had something in mind when he laid the course out. So there’s another kind of like, Hey, look at it from that perspective too. Or maybe think about the course designer drives a Miata, I wonder if this course is geared for his car and not for the GTO or something like that.

I mean, they’re never geared for the GTO O, but let’s face it. Right, right. But just some top tips there. Something that’s just like an R across course. Think outside of the box a little bit in terms of strategy and how you might pick up a 10th or two by asking different questions and talking to different people.

And that leads us into the next part, which is when you [00:35:00] get down to it, autocross can be really complex from the classing to the scoring, to data, to the prep, all of that. And actually I wanna. Expand upon Tom’s comment about data because we’re used to running data at the track with things like an aim solo where we’re looking at, you know, individual corners and breaking speeds and exit speeds and things like that.

How does data work on the autocross side? If you’re on a track, right, you could take data. Analyzing that data might be useful for the next time you go to that track. Cause if the track’s not gonna change with autocross doing sort of the postmortem I think helps you identify your mistakes, but it really doesn’t give you an opportunity to go correct that particular mistake.

Getting the data consumable in between runs is a, a tricky thing. I find it sometimes and it can be sort of distracting in many cases. Just looking at my video and seeing where I messed up is the best thing during the event. But there’s some guys, and I’m trying to get better at this, that are really good.

And comparing paths and, you know, [00:36:00] really refining their technique during the event. So to me that’s the, the big challenge of auto process is it helps to look later, but you’re, you know, that’s, like I say, it’s sort of a postmortem you that, that data, you’ll have to learn what you did wrong and try not to make that mistake on the next course.

But you’re not gonna be able to say, well I should have been two inches closer to that cone. Cause the course is gonna be totally different the next, or at least different enough that the data’s not gonna do any good for the next event. Yeah. As a mediocre drivers, Tom and I, you know, and then being overwhelmed with data, the thing I have, it can compare the two laps, you know, show you which element you got through faster.

Or maybe you come in and you have a really fast time and you have no idea. You’re like, I didn’t change anything from the first lap, so maybe the data can pick out where I slowed down or where I really picked up some time. You know, maybe I just chose just a slightly different path. And then, like Tom was saying, that you know, the postmortem looking at your videos, you can say, oh geez, look at how late I am getting on the gas.

Or, [00:37:00] you know, I’m not looking ahead, or I’m way off the cones, or I’m turning in too slow or whatever. So, I mean, the data is kind of multifaceted, but sticking your head in into that iPad or laptop or whatever you got is, it’s really tough to do, especially if you’re co-driving, right? You’re busting just trying to get the tires cool down, the pressure’s done, the seat belt’s done, and then there’s no time for data.

So, I mean, don’t count on it. You know, even a sunny day can make it difficult. You need to go find some shady areas of, do you even be able to really look and see the tablet appropriately? I have looked at some people’s fast guy, right? Run over to his car. Push the buttons on the camera and watch his video real quick.

And I’ll say, oh, he’s using that imaginary cone where, you know, where I’m running through the chalk line or something. You know what I mean? So you might be able to get something off of somebody I know at Nationals, first person out with the first video immediately puts that on YouTube or wherever, and people are watching that video trying to figure out what’s going on.

Did you say watch the [00:38:00] video or delete his video? Exactly. Delete the video at the time doesn’t count. I wonder if you’re ever gonna really address this, because we’ve had some folks, cause you know you get to walk the course the day before. Well, there’s been some folks that have been taking advantage of some of these simulations capabilities.

So they can take videos and sort of recreate the course in their simulation and go run a hundred runs in that course the night before. And I’m not sure what they’re gonna do about that. There’s been some debate over, uh, how to either embrace or, uh, prohibit that sort of technology move every cone six inches the next day, day.

And it’s all, you know. Right. Well, so the, you know, one of the things we did, uh, I may maybe we’ll get into with classing and whatnot, but you know, there are some fairly strict rules about, you know, no, you’re running the same heat, the same time, the same temperature as your competitors. You don’t have all day to get it done.

You know, you’re all running at the same time. Know the same heat. You don’t get an extra look, you don’t get to be a passenger and, and you know, and see the course at real speed. Right? You know, [00:39:00] all that stuff. Then you add into what Tom is saying, you know, you got a simulation of the course with video from the course.

You know, the guy holding the camera at belly button height walking. What he thinks is a good line. Yeah. A or a drone. Or a drone, right. Or whatever. I mean, it could be anything. Right. So, yeah. And you know, in some places they, you know, they don’t let you ride bicycles because they don’t want you to be able to get that momentum going and figure out, you know, what is a good line on a bicycle.

So, Tom, you talked about data and it sounded like from a software perspective, is there a package or a software, something you’re running on a phone or a tablet that you would recommend for somebody that wanted to try out recording their session? The reviews I’ve gotten for most of the phone based apps have not been that great.

Cause, uh, normally the integrated GPS is really not fast enough. So I’m actually using a race capture system, which is a standalone data acquisition system. It’s got a fast GPS on it, it has a set of accelerometers. So I get some, uh, data about, you know, how the car is moving, not just from the, uh, just from the [00:40:00] GPS connected in with, um, it controls the camera.

It’s connected via canvas to the ecu. So, uh, So it’s a pretty comprehensive system and it’s, that’s another one that’s kind of interesting because, you know, that system was probably five or 600 bucks, which is not chump change, but it’s certainly not 10 years ago that was probably a $20,000 setup. It’s, uh, it’s really kind of surprising how the technology, how, how accessible it is to us, uh, autocrossers and, and amateur race.

It’s educational too. It’s been very interesting to me. Not just from, you know, the racing perspective, but the whole, uh, analyzing data, gathering data, learning about sensors. I mean, it’s, that’s, it’s been a lot of fun for me. Can I add, so I’m, I’m using a, a low dollar tablet and an app solo storm, which you can run on, you know, you can run that on your phone, but if you buy the, you know, the super duper package, it comes with a GPS device.

And like you’re saying, the, you know, just using your phone might be good enough. If you want some data, you know, you’re gonna have to end up adding some sort of sensors. Now on the other end, [00:41:00] one of my friends is a, you know, retired Ford engineer that ran their racing program, you know, and he’s got all sorts of data on his car, so he’ll change tire sizes or, you know, make any minuscule change.

And he’s looking at difference in, you know, g-forces for stopping and turning and, and what his wheel speeds are over time. And you know, just all sorts of. Crazy stuff, you know, and he’s looking at changes in ride height during breaking and grip forces and brake temperatures, brake pressures. So you know, you can use the phone and it might be useful maybe, right?

Or you can go completely nuts. And you got, there’s your 10 grand full, full race engineer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s one end of the pendulum or the other. Something for our listeners to look into, and we did a previous episode on this and happens to be in your backyard, Tom. We had Andrew Rains on Break Fixx to talk about the Apex Pro.

And as we compared that to other systems like the AIM and the Garmin and others, and he explained how the platform works, I found. Really good [00:42:00] applicability for the Apex Pro in an autocross situation because it gives you that immediate feedback with the AI and the machine learning to tell you, you can go a little harder in this corner.

Granted, at Autocross, everything moves really, really fast, but if you’re able to record that and look at it the next time it’s telling you your tires can give you a little bit more. Now you have that feedback between the first run and the second run and the, and the subsequent runs after that. So maybe that’s something to look into as, as the bridge in the middle of these two ends of the spectrum.

As you guys can see, it’s pretty darn complicated, but it gets even more complex when we talk about. Classic. So who wants to explain how this all works within this kind of microcosm inside of autocross? I, I’ll, I’ll go first. I’ll go first. I’ll go first for my car. 66 G T o. Classic American muscle, you have to have finished interior and it can’t be any bigger or smaller than factory dimensions for the, you know, overall width, height, size.

But you have to have a 200 tread wear tire as well, [00:43:00] right? Yes. 200 tread wear tire. Yeah, that’s actually a defining, you know, having that tread wear really is, you know what takes everything apart, right? If you had sticky tires, then you’d start worrying about a lot of other things. But yeah, so my class is pretty much run what you brung my first event, you know, I just got it on the road, no interior.

And the way the rules were written, I just took that sharpie and I wrote, finished interior on the floor pan, you know, and the judge said, Hey, where’s your finished in interior? You know, the rules say you have to have finished interior. And I’m like, It’s right there and he looks at it and he goes, yep, that’s finished interior.

So lemme take a basic question to this, which is, what class do you run in Todd? Classic American Muscle Tradition. Camt? Yes, CAMT. There’s a lot more classes now than in the old school days when it was showroom stock, stock, street, prepared, prepared and modified. Those were the, let’s call those the top level domains of classes and R across, right?

Yeah. Then [00:44:00] you have all these sponsor groups inside of there. My class cam really started, because, you know, now it’s up to year 2000 for 48 to 2000. Some of the classes kind of started getting less, uh, showings. E S P doesn’t even run anymore, I don’t think. You know, the C S P guys, all those guys with the sort of race car classic cars, and then there’s a lot of dudes with muscle cars that wanted to come and do something.

So they tried to get a set of rules that you could just bring that classic car, whether it’s 20 years old or 40 years old, bring that out, you know, and have some fun with it in a class. Right? So I mean, that was. My class is a little bit different than, say, Tom’s Mine is sort of like, Hey, we’re trying to get people that already have a car.

Here’s a car. Try to get those guys out here, the good guys, autocross, the racing birds, the Optima Ultimate Street car and stuff like that. I mean, those guys want know, wanna play in S E C A. So that’s what my class really came from, is trying to get the, that group in as opposed to Tom’s, the variety that you see in those classes is always interesting.

I mean, the [00:45:00] limiting factor basically is the 200 tread wear tire. Uh, and you know, those few things like said interior, a few other odds and ends, but it’s Katie bar the door. Otherwise, if you wanna put. 9,000 horsepower engine in your car, have at it. You probably won’t be able to put it down with a 200 tread wear tire, but nobody’s gonna say you can’t run into class as far as classes go, just there’s a street class, a similar street class can use 200 tread wear tires as well.

There’s a whole crop tires that really blossomed around this, uh, this sport and around that tread wear rating. You know, you can make some changes. You can do some slight changes on the wheels. You can, you know, put a cat pack exhaust on it, you know, you can change your shock absorbers. You know, there’s, so there’s, it’s not just.

Straight up as it rolled off the showroom floor. That’s the street class. And it goes all the way from Super Street all the way down to I think H Street. The Super Street cars are the fastest ones. The H street are the slowest to an extent, but they try to group cars together that are, you know, similar in their performance capabilities.

Then you move into, uh, like street prepared, which [00:46:00] I’m in, and there’s really not a whole lot of street left in street prepared. I mean, uh, I, me up, I run a 15 by, by 11 wheel and a 2 75 tire. I had to cut the fenders, the air conditioners out. You take the radio out. I, I replaced, uh, the seats with racing seats.

I mean, it’s, it’s pretty, it’s not a very comfortable car to drive on the street. It’s got very stiff springs, crazy shock absorbers. You know, you can do a lot of stuff. You really can’t get inside the engine and do very much, but at the stuff on the outside of the engine, Intake and exhaust, all that stuff is basically unlimited.

Uh, my car’s turbocharged. You can’t fool around with the factory turbocharger, but you can fool around with the boost control. So, uh, there are some advantages, there’s some opportunities to build a horsepower there, and I’m, I’m skipping over a few of the classes, but then you get into some of the mod classes and that gets even crazier where you can chop the windshield off.

You can gut the interiors. You know, really get the cars very lightweight. So, but there is a proliferation of classes and I think some of these attempts, like the um, [00:47:00] cam stuff, there’s some street touring classes. The idea there was to try to maybe have a class that more cars could run in, but they really haven’t eliminated any classes along the way.

So, well, they also didn’t know where to put all the W Rx tis either they had to build STX around those cars. Cause where else were you gonna put an all-wheel drive, four cylinder turbo car? It just didn’t make sense. Well, they were in, uh, they were in my class for a while and, and the B Street repair, they moved them up to a street prepared.

And I was kind of glad to see that because, uh, that one time I was driving a, uh, my big heavy Corvette and I, it was hopeless. Uh, yeah, it, it’s, it’s really kind of sad because, uh, the street prepared classes especially I think have, um, you know, and this is not a knock on cam, but, but a lot of the ones that had the Detroit iron in ’em, if you will, those classes really have suffered because people have moved over to camp.

They, suffered is not the right word, but they’re less attended. They’re really trying to do a similar thing with this X excess B and X excess A, I believe they’re calling it now, which is gonna be essentially cam for imports. When you get right down to it, you know, [00:48:00] my problem is I’m hooked on the purple crack, man.

I got have my Hoosiers, I do not wanna be running on any 200 truck wear tires. To me, that’s the detractor or the, the thing that keeps me out of the, uh, CAM and or X S B X S A. I find that I see the limitations of the 200 Treadwear tires, but as far as with an open CLA where you can do, like you’re saying, I have the low, I have 400 horsepower, right?

So I’m probably the lowest horsepower car out there where I came from. You know, they had big blocks and, you know, six, 700 at the wheels, that 200 tread wear, it’s okay, how well can you steer this car? Mm-hmm. We don’t care how much, how bi, how good your engine builder is, or your gear ratios and all that good stuff.

It’s how well can you actually drive the car. So I think the 200 tread wear is a. Pretty good defining factor. And you missed one class. The what? The B R Z and the FRS class. They had that snowflake ssc. Yeah. Right. So that’s another, that’s almost a spec class I think, Tom. It is. There’s a, uh, sort of package of MOD you can do, and then [00:49:00] you’re out there, you know, it’s, it’s a mono, a mono, if you will.

It’s driver on driver action. There’s not really a whole lot of, uh, you know, I guess around the line few things, but it does limit the, the prep to, uh, formula. Todd, I have to ask you a direct question. What are the width of your tires on your gt? Well, well the, you know, and it’s the, the tire wars, it’s either three 15 or 3 0 5, whoever has them.

Oh. Oh, okay. So it’s still slightly bigger than Tom’s Miata audience. You heard that right. Two 70 fives on a Miata. I believe they call those either square or box Miatas sometimes, because they are, they look like little roller skates with those lot of, with 11 inch wheels on ’em. It’s nuts. Yeah, it looks a little weird, but it sure does do our around corners nicely.

You know, and it’s funny because you’re in one of the most highly contested classes, I think, in all of S Ccca and it’s traditionally always been C Street prepared. And even my dad fought for years and C Street prepared with an original CR Rx Si. And it was one of those deals where back then C C S P, the rules were so tight and so stringent and obviously [00:50:00] they’ve allowed more things and it’s mind boggling every time they make a change to C S P.

Cuz in the old days it was like you could run whatever, you know, with the wheel and tire so long as it fits. Within the fenders. And then there were these weird exceptions, like, well, if you had a mark one g t i and had the factory fender extensions that was legal, so you could get a bigger tire and then you’d put like nine degrees of camber in there so it would fit inside the fender and you still have like a 2 55.

It was, it was insane, you know. But now, I mean, I see these guys, you know, cutting the fenders of the Miatas, putting these big tires under there, and I’m just like, shouldn’t you be in prepared? Like, I, I don’t get it. Yeah, you can, you can cut the fenders, uh, in, in the plane of the wheel mounting surface. You can cut a pretty good bit off the Miata fender.

That’s insane. And so you’re running an NB Mazda speed or was this a modified Miata? It’s a Mazda speed, so it’s in B Street prepared. So I got S two thousands. And the, the funny thing is they put the, uh, the new Miatas are in that class as [00:51:00] well, so they have a pretty good weight advantage. And the big kicker is they’ve got a gearing advantage.

So my car, typically you’re gonna see some third gear action cuz it’s geared so low. If it’s a course that doesn’t require the, uh, newer MEO to go to third gear, then I’m at a pretty good disadvantage. If it’s a course that requires them to go to third gear, then I, I’ve got a pretty good advantage cause I’ve got better acceleration in third year.

So that, that’s part of the game. You know, you build yourself a car, you know, and, and when you do a full build on a street prepared car, you know, it’s, it’s not a inexpensive kind of thing. And then they, you know, some class changes come along and it sort of, uh, may relegate your car to the, uh, the back marker place.

So that’s exactly what happened with my, uh, the Corvette that I had. I, uh, Todd, do you know the names? Uh, do you know the Barry family? Yeah, the guy Ankeny? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This, this black Corvette that I had was Tom Barry’s car, been built by Guy Ankeny, and it was National Champion back when the C4 was a car to have in that class.

And it was a, it was a barrel of monkeys to drive, but [00:52:00] you know, it just was not gonna beat these newer, smaller, lighter cars. Not in that class. It won’t, yeah. If you’re limited, those C four s won’t do it. But now some of the CAM guys are building Killer C4 s mm-hmm. Right. But that’s open the rule book and you can see what happens.

But again, you’re just pouring in money. I wonder if those built C four s are gonna be able to hang with a built, even C5 with a transactional in the back. Those sorts of things. I hated to see that car go cause it was so much fun to drive. Guy Ankeny is a genius on the stuff that he does with regards to setup.

When I was working on that car and you know, maintaining it, I would come across these little touches and I was like, man, that’s clever. And I reveal any of the secrets here. It was a well set up car, it was fun to drive and I hated to see it go. So do you guys feel like autocross sometimes is a little bit of keeping up with the Joneses or is it more trying to find new ways to work within the boundaries and the parameters that we’ve been given it to Todd’s point, we’re mediocre enough that we wait for everybody else to leave and then the [00:53:00] class works for us cuz we’re the only ones left.

Let me, let me cut in before Tom starts talking. So he, he has a different class, different card, different idea. Right. When I got into, I had that TransAm, I bought a G T O and I built it because the TransAm was failing, uh, California smog. So I just built this car for myself. I was gonna drive it to work, drive it to the racetrack, drive it wherever, air conditioning, cruise control, you know, all automatic headlights, traction control, abs, all that stuff.

And I would just wanted to. To drive it and then, hey, cam class started. So I mean, I didn’t necessarily build the car for the class. I built the car for me, then Cam happened. If I was gonna try to win cam, I would take a c5, you know, zero six, cut the top of it off, put a Mustang on top of it or something, you know, or a two frame chassis, a Mustang, and come in at 3001 pounds.

And if you’re building a cam car to win, you got a load of money and a lot of dumb. [00:54:00] Because I got a load of money in it and a lot of dumb, and it’s not, you know, and it’s not really built for the class, you know, it was just something I built. So, yeah, and, and I think that’s the other impasse that you hit, which is you can only go so far in a class until you realize you have to switch cars if you wanna be nationally ranked or champion or, or whatever.

So I’ve see that a lot where people are like, wait, when did you get this car? Well, I wanted to be competitive in this new class. That’s the hot thing to be in. Yeah. Whereas, you know, whereas Tom’s class, any class basically that has a Miata in it, follow the flow chart. Miata is the answer. Right. So you build it to that class spec.

It used to be crx, but you know, Miatas taken over. Yeah. At least for autocross. At least for autocross. Oh yeah. And I did own a Miata, so I mean, I still have one in the trunk of the G T O. I use it as ballast when I have to put a little extra weight on. But I, I mean, it’s not a built Miata. So the Miata situation is nice cause there’s a lot of traffic in, uh, used parts and that sort of stuff as well.

That’s kind of a nice thing. I like my Miata. I’ve had a couple of Miatas, I think they’re cool cars. [00:55:00] I have a sundae and Alpine too. So I’m, I appreciate the little British car. And to me the, especially the first Gen Miata was like all the good stuff from the British cars. All the good stuff from the Italian sports cars mixed in with, that was a short list, wasn’t it?

Yeah. I dunno. They had a funny name. Yeah, it’s 16 valve twin cam, high revenue engines. And the, you know, and the Italian mix, of course, they broke every 10 minutes. Most of the British cars were sort of hip on their styling, but, You know, they had voters out of tractors, that kind of thing. None of ’em were reliable.

So, you know, you mix all that together with some good Japanese reliability and you’s, what all the, the, all those sports cars wanted to be back in the day. So I, I’ve enjoyed my Miata. I like the Corvette. Like I said, everybody that does this, in my mind is part of the family and I love ’em all, appreciate their cars.

I just want everybody to come and have fun and enjoy their cars. I appreciate pretty much all makes of the manufacturer. So knowing what you know now, because you’re on the subject matter expert end of the pendulum for the folks that are starting out, right? This is kind of a [00:56:00] double-edged question. If you had to start all over again with the cars that are available today, what would you buy?

Which segues into what are some great starter autocross cars that’s not your mom’s caravan or the Hertz rental car like we were joking about at the beginning. I think we’ve established that Miata is typically the answer for most Motorsport questions. So that’s an obvious choice. There’s lots of ’em out there.

Three series BMWs. Honda S two thousands, c5, Corvettes, c6, Corvettes. There’s a lot of cars out there. It just kind of depends on what you wanna do. I mean, there’s literally, in my, in my mind, there’s a car for almost every taste, if you will, that can be auto across and do pretty well. No love for front wheel drive.

That’s what I heard at it, right? Yeah. I was just gonna say, there was a common denominator there, which was river drive. Starting out though, and trying to buy a car that’s gonna do well. I mean, you, you know, we got Mr. Purple Crack here and I’m 200 tread wear. Starting out. You have no idea if, do you want to have high horsepower or do you [00:57:00] want to go with s t s or whatever, you know, low horsepower.

But man, they can turn to buy a car. Starting out. I would show up at, I had a Acura vigor or whatever, whoever made vigor or vior or whatever. I like to call it vior king vigor, or, you know, made it anyhow. Yeah, right. The Viagra car, you know that five cylinder? So you show up with some turd and you kind of go from there and you see, you know, maybe you like the looks of a car.

I like the looks of a car and I build it. The Miatas are great fun. I mean, stock Miatas are fun to drive On the street, I don’t really fit and I got into an accident one, so I don’t want one. But to start out, yeah, I would take my mom’s car, my dad’s car, or any car, I’d get my rental car, you know, and go see what I like.

Basically it just needs to be wider than it is tall. Autocross and like I mentioned, uh, uh, a sturdy battery hold down and, and then do it to it. But I do wanna go back, you know, on the front wheel drive thing, it’s uh, we have a guy that runs with us. Who has a, uh, a [00:58:00] neon, and that’s a, you know, that’s an autocross car.

They had a great contingency program back in the day. They were very popular. Well, and the funny thing was, apparently the guy that was like the manager of the neon program for Chrysler was an autocrosser. Wally Swift. I knew him personally. Yes. So, you know, the car came with a little bit more suspension adjustment than you might have normally expected in a economy car.

But it’s a lot of fun because this guy’s got a, a first gen neon acr. He bought it off the lot, didn’t even know what it was. He was just looking for an economy car. But it’s always fun when, uh, You know, new people are show up and they’re like, well, yeah, can I get a ride or something? It’s like, yeah, just go ride that guy with his neon.

It’s just a neon. Then they come back with a bit of a terrified look on their face and say, I thought I was gonna die. Which is always, uh, a fun thing to do to people. Fun fact about Wally Heer crossed forever, but he also was the owner of an alpine. He oughta cross a tiger. So, uh, there you have. Yeah, I remember that.

He, I think well didn’t, yeah, he took that tiger [00:59:00] quite a ways, as I recall, didn’t he? Yep. I mean, obviously he was in Detroit for a long time, but he resided in the BMV after he got out of all that. But awesome guy. Uh, unfortunately he passed away many, many years ago, but many of us here in our area knew Wally very, very well.

So, yeah. That’s, that’s funny how small the autocross world can be, even though it’s a nationally recognized program. I was enjoying your story about the neons. I almost bought one. I’m sorry. This guy’s running an fsp. And we’re trying to get him to sort of take it to the next level. He is running the white tires and all that sort of stuff, but there are other things that he could do to, uh, kick it up a notch.

So this actually brings up a really good point about car prep. You can take this two ways. One, I’ve heard it said many times, autocrossers make terrible track drivers and track cars make terrible autocross cars, right? So you can go either way. It, it’s vice versa. Track drivers going to autocross and, and, and, and so on and so forth.

The disciplines are so different and the driving styles are technically so different, grounded in the same foundational properties that they [01:00:00] cannot. Used in both realms. Right? It’s like taking a bow and arrow to go shoot something you need a bazooka for, right? It’s just, it doesn’t, it doesn’t work. Do you guys think that that’s true or is there a compromised car that could do both?

66 GT O I’ve ridden in your car? Yes, it does. It’s, you know, So sorry Tom, lemme cut you. So again, I had, you know, one, a friend of a friend that was like Mr. Actual track training type, like professionally paid to do this stuff for racing teams. So he helped us out at some event and he is like, what are you guys doing with your cars?

And he just goes through this whole list of stuff that we should be checking on our autocross cars. We’re at a race track track event and he is like, you should be checking this, this, this, this. You know? And did you adjust this since the track and all these adjustments he would’ve made, he knows autocross and he knows track cars.

He’s like, did you guys make any of those adjustments? And I’m like, I put gas in it, I think I’d say check tire pressure, [01:01:00] right? Yeah. You know, and I, yeah, check tire a couple pounds lower and we’re good to go. I mean, as far as one that does it both, I mean, I don’t change my stuff because it’s kind of hard to change from autocross to a road race configuration, and then I just drive around it knowing that if generally if it starts sliding, I know what’s gonna happen as opposed to trying to make it this track beast, which, I mean, you could pick up a couple tents, but if road race and tracks were any easier, wait, it would be drag racing.

Oh man, boom. My experience with the C4 four events, the two of ’em that I had was. The big change that you needed to make was different tires, but I would, like I said, I typically would ruin a set of brakes. That was the other thing too. You didn’t wanna run with your autocross pants on the track. Not for two hot laps in a row.

You don’t. No, but I, you know, I always, I enjoyed those. We have a motorcycle track, little talladegas near the big Talladega, and that track was pretty cheap to rent, so I, I did a number of track days there. [01:02:00] It was, uh, you know, a hundred to 50. Three times in about a minute and a half for the lap. So it was, it was pretty brutal.

On breaks, we talk about autocross and its complexity and this and that, but there’s one piece I think that we’ve forgotten to address, which is the penalty side of autocross. I mean, in the track world, the penalty is, ah, I scrubbed the lap. Or maybe you had the, uh, the unfortunate incident of mowing some grass or something like that.

But at autocross, we have to remind people it’s a competitive event. It always is. There’s no like fun runs. It’s not like a d where there are fun runs, but it’s not like a de where you’re out there learning and it’s all about expanding your knowledge. You’re competing against the clock, you’re competing against other cars in your class.

You’re competing against everybody that’s there. So what’s penalty for screwing up? Well, if you hit a cone, it’s a, uh, time penalty. One second, I believe is what they’re, uh, putting on there is at two. Depends on where you’re racing. Depends on where you race. So kinda thing we do two, I don’t hit cones that much, but, uh, says [01:03:00] modestly.

Well, actually it’s a problem if you’re not hitting cones, at least on occasion you’re not trying hard enough. Uh, yeah, two second penalty. I mean that and two seconds is like 10 years in autocross. If you hit a cone, unless everybody else hits a cone, you’re probably done with that run. You’re heading towards a gate or a feature and you don’t go through that feature appropriately.

You go around it or you miss it, which, uh, you know, if you’re not looking ahead, that’ll happen. Then it’s a D n f, so you don’t get a time at all. They’ll, they’ll typically post what your scratch time is that that run does effectively does count, also known as off course, right? Correct. Because you did not stay within the boundaries of the course.

There’s also another D N F I believe you can get, which is blowing through the stop garage when you run outta brake pads. Isn’t that right, Todd? Yes, exactly. The other thing is yeah, maybe you hit a cone. You know, a lot of people worry, oh well it’s gonna mess up my car and this and that. Which kind of leads us into the question is auto cross safe?

Like I said, I’ve been doing this for a while. I have seen two cars essentially get towed, [01:04:00] so it is not without risk, but I’ve also seen numerous cars. We just had one a couple weeks ago, you know, the car, we had one go in the ditch, the guy got it out, took the car wash, washed the mud off and ran the afternoon.

Uh, he had a couple little minor problems with the car or you know, cosmetic issues, but you know, he is probably gonna fix it for less than 200 bucks. So anytime you get out in the car and you flinging around, there is going to be a degree of risk. We endeavor and have safety rules, debates, and we’ll change the course if we think it’s dangerous.

But you know, there’s only so much protection from an individual that can be done if you do something colossally stupid or perhaps have an equipment failure. There is a risk of of hitting a solid object. Yeah, we, I’ve never seen anyone injured. I’ll put it to you that way. We’ve had equipment failures that have had things, have a lot of people running off course.

I do know one person that had a stuck throttle on a, some sort of a kick, you know, 700 horsepower in a 1500 pound car, and that car went straight. That was a mess. You know, that’s, uh, some sort of a failure on a [01:05:00] home-built car, which is different than your, you know, driving your mom’s car. But, yeah, you know, I wasn’t kidding.

I do not on purpose, but I generally, if there’s room, I’ll do a donut instead of, you know, if I, if the back end starts to come around, you’ll end up doing a donut or spinning out or, or running over a whole pile of cones. One time I was like, yelling at my wife. You just smashed into that cone. Well, I wanted to try going straight and see what happened.

So you can do that, right? I mean, you can just go straight, hit a cone and say, oh, no, big, yeah, I gotta rub a little plastic off the paint. Generally speaking, you know, it’s a smoke and go, or, uh, you hit a couple cones or you get a red flag and you gotta stop, or something like that. But generally speaking, it’s way safer than track.

But we’re not talking like good guys, autocross or Optima, ultimate streetcar autocross, where they have concrete K rails all the way around the autocross course. So, I mean, that’s a different, some organizations wouldn’t allow the concrete cave rails around, you know, they say it’s, you don’t have enough safety barrier.

The S E C A absolutely has a load of rules and they have a [01:06:00] safety, uh, chief safety, you know, it’s a actual position steward. Yeah. So I mean, they’re trying to make a safe course. If your top speed is 50, that if you have a, a reasonable driver, a reasonable idiot, That you’re reasonably safe. And some of that also comes down to the construction of the lot harder and harder these days to find lots like there are in California or maybe abandoned airports or even down south where Tom is, where there’s not a lot of islands and, and things in the middle of the lot for lighting.

And you know, the days of, you know, running at certain stadiums is still sort of a deal, but not really anymore, right? Because they’ve tightened down on what can be done, where autocross can be run and all that. So obviously you want a a parking lot with the least amount of obstructions and those are the safest ones.

But then you have to keep in mind, hey, if there is some sort of barrier in the center or whatever, where is that? You know, what’s the transition like? Are they using that part? How close is it to a gate? So these are things you have to kind of use your better judgment on your own. Are you gonna go 11 tenths into that corner?

Well, no. Maybe [01:07:00] that’s to the point you guys were talking earlier. That’s the throwaway corner. We’re gonna take it easy cuz we don’t wanna do a donut six feet from a curb. Granted, they would probably never put the gate that close, but you never know, right? Physics will take us in interesting directions, but there’s another side of this, right?

We talk about all the time, and you guys mentioned it earlier, at least on the track side of the house, tech inspections, right? When you go to the track, because you, the car is under heavy duress, heavy stress, and lots of heat, things are prone to fail a lot more than, let’s say they would be in an autocross.

So our tech inspections are very in depth, or we’re checking all these things. It’s like almost like a safety inspection for your state. What’s a tech inspection like for autocross? What are you looking for? What are you checking? Do you do it beforehand? Do you do it on site? That’s one of the things I do for, uh, our events is, uh, due to tech inspections, you know, we’re checking to see that there’s not any sort of bad leaks.

I, I keep mentioning the battery. Hold down. That is the number one thing. It gets people in trouble in the tech inspection. You gotta have your battery batten down. Uh, I remember there was a guy there in a lotus, at [01:08:00] least whatever the battery’s in the front, the previous owner had left one of the hard to get to.

Clamps off, pulled down. Of course, it wasn’t really evident in the tech inspection. Battery came loose. The autocross t trundled around under the hood there. Did like 12 grand worth of damage. You had to have it taken on a tow truck. So, like I said, battery hold downs, biggie. You wanna make sure that the steering wheel’s not loose.

We, we wiggle the tires to try to see if there’s any loose load nuts. You know, you’re, you’re basically just doing a good visual inspection looking for anything that cause problems in an auto cross situation. It’s not terribly invasive, but you know, loose items outta the cockpit. Seat belts in good shape, no big cracks that obscure the vision on the windshield battery.

Hold down for the 11th time. Uh, you know, no missing lu nuts, things of that nature, but it’s, it’s as comprehensive as a five to seven minute inspection can be. Yeah. And that wheel shake is also for wheel bearings as well to see if anything clicking or cl in CV joints, stuff like that. It’s a lot of suspension.

Heavy inspection. Uh, just outta curiosity, you guys still do the hands-off brake tests like in the old [01:09:00] days? Uh, no. So for those that don’t know what that is, I used to love that at the end of the tech inspection they would have you take off and then take your hands off the wheel and then slam on the brakes.

And the idea was to see whether the car would track true, would track straight if there was an issue with the alignment. So wasn’t sure if that had totally gone away. Uh, I always thought that was kind of fun and kind of silly cuz you could drive with your knees if you were smart, but hey, you know, whatever.

We do a walk around tech inspection so we just, you know, stroll around a lot. And, uh, check the cars out. I also do tech inspection and yes, it’s always the battery hold down that you’re, you know, sending people away class and numbers sometimes sends people away. The other thing is the lug nuts. You know, we had in California, one guy showed up and he is, and he was missing the lug nut and the tech inspector, you know, he is like, come on man, you know, I’m just missing one lug nut.

And the guy’s like, okay, well, you know, go replace that lug nut and I’ll, you know, I’ll let it go. So he checked the two wheels on the other side, were missing two lugnuts as well. Sometimes people are just asking, you know, it’s like, you [01:10:00] know, that kind of person where you don’t inspect your car at all and autocross a track day, any of these things, this is not an arrive and drive.

This is not come and show up and drive our supercars, drive our go-karts drive. This is your car. You are responsible, right? So I mean, if your state has an inspection, basically it’s a state inspection would be good enough to, to do autocross. The other thing that is, uh, Become problematic as of late. We run sound at our events because that seems to be the number one complaints, and it’s such an inexact science, but we do have to run sound.

We, we we’re in a high school, uh, football stadium parking lot that’s right next to a big bunch of apartments. That’s one of the things that as of late, problematic. Is your guys’ sound limit? The same as the track guys’s? Is it 103 decibels? No, it’s like, I think it’s 90 at something. You had so many feet or something.

98 at 50 feet or something? Yeah, like 97 or 98. That runs dnf. You get some warnings and stuff like that. Lower levels, depending on the humidity. And working with some of our guys, cause you know, huntsville’s just chop a block with engineers. I’m thinking there’s gotta [01:11:00] be a way to calibrate things. Maybe you use one of those boat horns or something.

It’s all about how it sounds to the people in the apartment. So maybe you go stand over near their place, blow the horn. Sound meter and ensure that it’s about the same every time. I dunno, it sound sounds to me like super traps need to come back in style. You guys remember those? Or you put the plates on the back to quiet the car down and whatnot?

I, I have one in my toolbox, those box. Yeah. Yeah. I was just gonna say that, that’s a standard, uh, autocross item. It’s a plugin, you know, super trap type deal. I don’t know if yours, Tom, if yours is actually a super trap, but he has a turbo. That’s like a muffler. Anyway, so, you know, I was concerned about it being too loud.

So I, I think it would fit over the, uh, exhaust, the tip. I loaned it to a guy one time at a, an event when he was blowing sound in his, uh, s 2000. It turned out to be so restrictive that his car wouldn’t even go into vtech. Wow. It’s like that scene for Beverly Hills Copper where he shoves a potato bot.

Bananas. Tailpipe, right. Banana. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean, on the sound thing, I, I get you there was, I was there with a guy some. Porsche, uh, [01:12:00] at a track day event, and we were parked right next to each other. And I start my car and it’s pretty noisy, and he starts his car and we’re kind of screwing with each other before the event started.

You know, I revved it up a little bit and he revved it up and people are like, man, that G t O is loud. I’m like, okay. He ends up getting thrown off the track for sound violation, and I didn’t. It’s because my exhaust was pointed away from the sound meter or something. And, and to Tom’s point, you know, we’re not trying to get kicked off of these courses.

These pads, right? So I have, you know, cutouts, I can close my cutouts if, if we’re in a, you know, some sort of a place where you wanna be a little bit less noisy, but you know, it’s really about what you hear. The db, where the meter is, is sitting is not necessarily what the person in the apartment complex is hearing, you know, so I mean, as far as trying to keep your place happy, just going by sound meter alone might not necessarily do it.

One of the places we used to race, they would say, Hey, if you guys got cutouts or if you got super trap, put your Laguna Seka exhaust on because we’re trying to keep this lot. [01:13:00] It just sort of depends, and that’s also really important too, I guess, dovetails back into that safety conversation as well, is.

Also to remember that you are a steward of the discipline. So what you do coming and going from the lot is representative of everybody that’s there. So, you know, kind of like the cars and coffee thing, if you screw around leaving, that has ramifications or repercussions for the people. And sometimes it has caused folks to, or organizations to lose lots.

So something else to keep in mind. It’s not just about what’s going on when you’re there, it’s also in that surrounding area. And don’t be fooled if you don’t think the cops are hanging out either. Right. Waiting for everybody to tear out of there. It’s funny cause almost without fail, we will have somebody drive by our event not affiliated with the event.

They see a bunch of guys and guys out there driving around in their cars and they’re gonna have to do, uh, you know, top speed run as they go past the site. Yep. Um, we’ve actually done some, uh, emergency service challenge races where we’ll have the cops and the ambulance drivers and such come and, and run.

So [01:14:00] we do what we can to, uh, maintain good relationships with those people. Uh, we’re, we’re sort of using this site at the pleasure of our local school system. So we do, um, the street survival schools, uh, that S E C A puts on. And those are excellent. And the other thing that’s kind of cool and Huntsville are doing this green power racing.

I don’t know if you guys have ever heard of it. Mm-hmm. It started in the uk it’s about electric cars. They got a class that, uh, they have elementary school, middle school, and high school kids. They have these kick cars. Basically they take ’em apart and put ’em back together as part of the class, learn about electricity.

Then they get out and race ’em. Uh, and it’s like an endurance race. And the club does timing and, uh, race control, support for the schools along those lines as well. So we do what we can to make sure we’re giving back and being a valuable part of the equation here. We’ve talked a lot about autocross, but there’s.

Other sort of sub variance of autocross. I know of two others, pro solo, which we had mentioned, and then there’s Track Cross, which I know Todd does. Are there any [01:15:00] others, and let’s expand upon the differences a little bit. Obviously we defined autocross, but what about the other two? Track cross is generally, and it depends on the the event, but generally it’s just a section of track that you know, they’re timing it like autocross, so it’s one car at a time.

Same basic idea as autocross, but it’s on track. Occasionally they’ll throw out a cone or two to maybe slow down a corner, kind of changes speed. So, you know, like we were talking about Shenandoah, they use, you know, a section of the course that doesn’t have the straight, because they’re trying to keep, you know, the speeds in the seventies, you don’t, not into the hundreds depending on your car, of course.

Right. So that’s track cross where it’s, it’s actually on a road course track. So, you know, the cool thing is you can go learn the track and then go to this track cross, and then if they’re going the same direction, using the same sets of corners, you know, maybe they’ll use the emergency turnout or they’ll, you know, use some sort of a bypass or the infield or something like that.

That’s a little bit different. But you know, if you went back to 10 events, you would see the same course a [01:16:00] couple of times and you’d have a chance to say, oh, I know these three or four corners, and you could throw something together. And they’re still using cones to change the configuration of the track, even though the track is static.

Some do, like Shenandoah, not much of a need for additional cones. I, I did one in, uh, Las Vegas and they put, uh, those 55 gallon, you know, barriers in there that would mess up, you know, it was, it was on purpose. You know, they’re like, if you hit that, you’re gonna destroy your car, so don’t drive through there.

So, I mean, it just depends on the event and who’s running it. There’s one at Thunder Hill where they put, you know, a Chicago box in the, you know, in one of the straightaways, which wasn’t so good because there’s a wall there. And, you know, some people aren’t thinking about that. So that’s, you know, that’s another, you’re talking about where’s your throwaway corner, where are you gonna give it, you know, full go.

I think about if I lose control of this car, where am I going? So in that straightaway, and then a Chicago box, maybe you want to take it easy on doing that lane change. The Chicago box is like avoiding a car in the middle of the road. You know, maybe you’re gonna take it easy on [01:17:00] that. So it just sort of depends on the club.

So pro solo. That’s all Tom. You know, I got the GT O and everybody’s like, oh man, wow, that’s so cool. And the car so fast. What kind of times do you run? And I’m like, oh, you know, like 53, 54 seconds. It depends on the auto. They’re like, no, no drag race. I’ve never drag raced it. I’ve drag raced a motorcycle for fun, but like at a track once.

But other than that, no drag racing terrible at the lights. Tom go. So pro solo is uh, kind of a blending, uh, somewhat of drag racing and autocross. There will be two courses. They endeavor to make them as equivalent and similar as possible. Mirror image, usually right, right. Mirror image, they try, depends on the site.

Regular autocross, when you come up to the start line, you get set and then they’ll tell you, okay, you can go. And then the timing doesn’t start until you take off and break the beam. So you can sit there and, you know, scratch your head for a minute. With pro solo, it actually has a Christmas tree start, so that’s the sort of drag race angle.

The scoring on it gets [01:18:00] kind of complicated. Normally the way it’ll work is you’ll have a day long session where you’ll do kind of standardish, kind of autocross thing, where you’ll come and get probably three runs. And that will be three runs on each side of the course, and you do ’em kind of back to back.

So that’s kind of fun. And then you’ll come back and do an afternoon run, and then the class winners and such will be selected then at that point to go into the tournament the next day. Normally they’ll have a last chance where you’ll come in and get two more runs of the course in the morning if you’re not already a class winner.

To kind of get in, you know, on that second chance sort of scenario. But then you’ve got an index time that you ran the previous day, which is basically your fastest time. The objective is essentially to run as close to that time as as you can, and if you don’t, it does just reestablish your index if you run faster.

And then in that part of the show, the light timing is different. So the, what they want to do, they’re trying to make it so that both cars will finish at the same time. So if you’re in the 400 horsepower, [01:19:00] ssm, yada, and you got somebody that’s in the H Street Cobalt or whatever, You’re gonna have to sit there after they take off, which could be a little bit of a, uh, discipline problem.

So I’ve run pro solos. I think they’re fun. I’ve never really done very well at them. The, uh, other thing we haven’t talked about, the handicapping system called Pax comes into play and that’s a whole nother, uh, kettle of fish. So I think they’re fun, but I’ve never really had much success at. So do we wanna talk about packs?

Cuz every time it comes up, there’s just this giant groan from everybody that knows what we’re talking about. I, Hey, hey, you, you know what, Tom? Sorry to cut in, but I, I can level this down. So I’m sitting at the stoplight, right? And there’s one of those sweet all-wheel drive Porsches. The brand new Corvette and me and my GT O.

Right. And we see it’s on. Okay. You know, engines are revving a little bit. Light turns green, we take off tires, smoke flying, just hauling ass to the next light. You know, we get to the next light. Porsche’s first, Corvette second, and I come in last in between ’em, I ruled down my windows and I [01:20:00] yell Pax, I won.

Nobody cares about Pax. It’s not real. Okay? It’s like the race is the race. You gotta pax up kid. It’s like the drag racers say it’s almost give you 15 in the kick, right? And it’s like seriously? Yeah, something. It’s sort of funny cuz there’s one dude that comes up with these PAX factors and the whole objective is, To take the car outta the equations.

Again, if you’re running hot Rod a GT O and I’m running into Volkswagen Golf, then what they wanna be able to do is multiplier times by factor so that we could sort of run head to head. I’m, I’m with you. There’s nobody really likes Pax. Yeah. So facts is based off of a national driver in a national car that’s optimally set up for the class.

Right. So that’s where these packs numbers come from. So if your car is not necessarily optimally set up in your class, then the packs might not, you know, because you put in a different seat in your car and now you’re in a some weird class. Well, that Pax [01:21:00] isn’t really any good for you, but, but it is good.

So that way, you know, like maybe Tom and I are running at, at events. He’s a better driver than me. I can see where my packs, if it’s getting closer to his packs or not, to determine if I’m getting better at driving, because we know Tom’s not getting any better. Right. You know, or you know, so, so you can at least see, you know, when you’re starting out, you’ll have changing seconds, you know, in your time, not tens or thousands.

Right. So you can see your improvement compared to maybe one of your friends that’s been doing it for a while that’s in a different class or something. That’s where I think it comes in handy. So you can take that guy that never changes, that’s always, you know, up there at the top of the heat and see how, how you’re comparing to him across these courses that it’s a different course every single time.

So, I mean, that’s where I use pacs. I mean, it’s a thing, the S E C A uses it, it’s frustrating. I don’t, I mean, I’m, I, you know, like I said, one guy’s doing it, it’s not even a committee. So it’s imperfect for to be sure, but I’m not sure it could be perfect. [01:22:00] I, I really think that it’s not horrible, but I, I haven’t had much luck with pacs.

I’m with you. The time should be the time, and the reason I say that is I got burned by the packs, not necessarily in autocross, but in time trials because S c a decided, oh, we’re gonna carry the packs over to time trials, which makes no sense to me. And so a second place over for the day, put me in eighth place by the end of the weekend because the packs, and I’m like, my time is my time.

I should not get beat by Miata. Half my horsepower because the pack said so it doesn’t work. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s kind of, to me it’s like, well, if you’re gonna have a ton of classes and you’re gonna have one or two people in classes, then you probably need something to try to be able to compare people outside their class.

I would not wanna be the guy doing it. I don’t disagree. And the second worst job there is the guy that’s gotta come up with all the classing rules. Cause that’s even worse than the packs. So, so they, they do have the what, the X class, which is APACS based class. Right. So [01:23:00] there, it’s a whole group of guys running on the packs class.

I mean, those dudes are normally at the, their car is at the top of the prep. You know, their, their car is set up and ready to go and they’re the better drivers. So, I mean, they’re having fun in packs, you know, using it to their advantage. We run a, uh, pro class, which is, you know, whatever class you’re in, you can run and they just use your packs again.

It is funny to watch cause if it rains, A certain time. You know, there’s so many things that can sort of derail it. Like I said, it’s, it’s an imperfect system, but it is a thing. Makes it more interesting and it gives people a reason to come back and try again. Right? Like, like we talked about at the beginning.

So what comes next? Well, you graduate from autocross. Some people go to the track, some people go club racing, some people go spec me outta, you know, spec, E 36, things like that. But I think there’s a stop gap for those that aren’t a hundred percent sure they wanna go. To the track, but they don’t wanna leave Autocross and I brought it up several times, and that’s time trials.

That’s where I found myself enjoying, because I’m still competing against cars in my class against the [01:24:00] clock, but I’m doing it on the racetrack. So oftentimes, you know, people are ah, time trials, it’s just qualifying. But qualifying is what sets you up for the race, right? And so I think it’s a great blend between going to the track and just doing track stuff and going to autocross because you’re still competing, you’re still trying to squeeze every little second out of the car, every little adjustment to gain back as much time as you can on that lap.

And then to our point that we were just talking about, scoring is incredibly complicated. So is the class thing, but that’s what makes it. Fun and a reason to come back. So something else to explore for the autocrossers that are listening to this, you know, try time trials. It’s a fully sanctioned program within S E C A as well, and it’s an easy transition if you’re looking for something new and exciting that doesn’t have the same, let’s say, payload.

As you know, club racing would have, you know, the fastest lap time is absolutely not the way you’re gonna be racing wheel to wheel. I mean, unless you’re out in the front of the pack or by yourself or something. And even then fastest lap time, you’re, you’re leaving that door wide open for somebody [01:25:00] to shove it in, into a corner, stuff it in there, and then that messes up your lap.

Then you end up going off courses with what I did at Lemon’s once. So I That’s very true. And, and the other thing with time trials is, is you’re building your consistency. You want those laps to be within fractions of a second of each other lap after lap after lap. When you’re club racing, it’s all, well, I got stuck in this pack and I had to make the pass and I’m holding ’em in a defending, so you’re lap time.

Pretty much goes completely out the window. But if you’re looking for precise track, driving time trials is definitely where it is. If you’re not doing track cross like you’re doing, which is also a nice little blend or hybrid there. Continuing that conversation of what other variants of autocross is there, obviously time trials being that ultimate blend of all those together.

There are passing rules in time trials cuz you’re out there with other cars. You could be out there with slower cars and don’t you have to get a point by or or at least it de It depends on the, it depends on the organization. They all run them differently. So some are completely open passing and you just leave space and the guy goes by.

Sometimes you run door to door, other times [01:26:00] it’s a staggered rally start. So they don’t want the cars on top of each other. They give everybody a certain amount of distance and then if you do end up catching, the other thing is they will stagger us by class. So you only qualify, let’s say all the B S P cars go out together.

And they should be running similar time. So you, you all just eventually just spread out or give each other room. So there’s different strategies depending on what you’re doing. I happen to run in, it depends on the group. I would be an s t U, an s, c a em R’s got different rules than s ccca A and b. BMW’s got theirs.

They vary wildly other than the guiding principle that the fastest lap is what you’re scored on. However you achieve that is, is kind of up to you. I’ve also been told, and I follow this rule religiously, if I can’t get it done in nine laps, I’m off the track, three warm, three hot, three cold, and I’m gone.

Because if you’re spending more time than that, you’re just destroying consumables. But we, that’s, that’s a conversation for another day. So just like in circuit racing, we have our favorite and least favorite tracks, right? Some we go to because. [01:27:00] We absolutely love them and others well, whatever. We’ll just kind of skip over ’em.

But can the same be said of autocross? Is that true? Are there some that are great, some that are different? What makes a lot better than another one? The surface is the biggie. So, uh, concrete is king. There’s much more grip available on the concrete. I find, you know, I run on an asphalt course. Here locally.

So when I go somewhere else that has concrete, there’s always a bit of an adjustment that has to take place. You know, take advantage of the additional grip. Places like Bristol, the parking lot’s got a lot of bumps and elevation changes. There’s almost always a few cars that breaks some suspension parts on those, uh, at that lot.

But it’s interesting because, you know, it’s, it’s a little different than a flat lot. So yeah, I definitely think there are different venues that have different characteristics that make them more or less desirable. The, like I said, the, that one airport that we run at Crow’s Landing, the, you know, the backup runway for the shuttle, that’s a concrete, you know, striped concrete.

So it’s like infinite traction. [01:28:00] You’re setting your suspension as stiff as you can get it. Picking up wheel. I was picking up wheels, you know, on the GTO o. So, you know, you have loads of traction, lots of. Run off. You run off the track, you’re running over weeds and you’re talking about the asphalt course.

Good guys, notorious, you know, they have that super smooth black asphalt that’s never used, you know, it’s off in some corner, so it’s sort of dirty and greasy and it’s like ice when you’re on it. One of the lots we used to go to the asphalt was coming up so you’d get, uh, wagon wheels, you know, of debris, little pebbles and stuff.

So if that was the line, there was no, choose your line. It’s stay out of, out of the stones. And then you’re talking about tom elevations or features in the parking lot, the American Autocross series, uh, that I ran in California, uh, one lot that they would use had, you know, a big, like a drainage bump in the middle of it.

So they would use that as some sort of a banking curve, you know, so they’d do a banked curve and you know, and get you slowed down and then do a U-turn or something. [01:29:00] Whereas other organizations that would use that lot, they would just go straight across that drainage dump, you know, and you’d be jumping your car, breaking suspension, you know, depending on what it was making an unsafe situation where, you know, one time it was, you know, go over that jump and then make a, a hard, right.

Well, you know, a lot of people just went straight because you know, you can’t break in the air. Right. So, yeah, absolutely different lots. And even, you know, that same, you know, I liked going to the events with, you know, that one club because they used the terrain, whereas other clubs didn’t necessarily pay attention to that.

So, I mean, it could be, try a different club, maybe that club uses. The lot more effectively. Even just where they set their trailer or where they have the staging or where they like to put the lights, or they want to have the entrance on one side versus the other. Try a different organization at the same lot and you might have a completely different experience.

And I think asphalt’s probably more variable than concrete in terms of its grip. Let’s call it that, because it also depends on the [01:30:00] composition of the asphalt itself, right? I’ve been to some lots that just tend to bleed sand. It’s insane just because the asphalt so porous versus you’ve autocross the summit point on multiples of the tracks up there and the asphalt using a racetrack is completely different than that using a parking lot.

So your grip factors are kind of all over the map. Concrete’s, uh, uh, to your point is way more consistent, right? It’s kind of, eh, there’s different mixtures there too, but not nearly as extreme as asphalt where you have. Different sealants and how old is it? And you know how beaten by the sun and all this.

I think again, that brings back some replay value. To your point, Todd, about going to the same lot multiple times. You might not have had a great experience with that one club. The course layout didn’t work for that lot, but another course layout might have been awesome. And so that’s another bring it back.

Try it again. Keep going after it. You know, don’t let your first or or second time ruin the experience. Try and try. You’re gonna become a better driver during that entire process. And Tom said he went to Nationals or has gone to nationals a couple times and that the courses flowed [01:31:00] together pretty well.

Well, I went to nationals once and. It seemed one of the courses was just horrendous. Didn’t flow at all for me and, and my driving style or the car I was in or whatever. Right. But, you know, you go back the next day and you’re like, oh, hey look, this, this is fun. So, I mean, absolutely. If you, you know, if you quit after just one bad event, right?

You’re gonna have a lot of bad events. You’re gonna have a lot of bad courses. You’re gonna have courses that you don’t like, courses that don’t fit your car, that don’t fit your driving style. It’s gonna be too hot, too cold, too wet, not enough traction. You got the purple crack guys that you know, you know that, that want ultimate traction.

You got the 200 tread wear guys that are like, Hey man, I’m trying to drive my car home. So you, you just never know what you’re gonna get. You gotta try a couple of them and, and see what shakes out. It’s not gonna be the perfect experience time. I believe Force Gump said it’s like a box of chocolates, right?

Right. Just as a reminder for everybody that’s listening. I wanna summarize everything that we’ve captured here. We’ve gone off the deep end, we’ve talked, you’ve shared a lot of [01:32:00] stories, we’ve talked about a lot of really interesting things. But if you’re trying to learn about autocross for the first time, I just wanna remind you that Autocross is a performance driving event and a safe way to learn how you can drive your car at its limits.

Events are run at speeds, usually between 40 and 65 miles an hour commonly in second gear. You not only learn how to handle your car at speeds that you drive daily, but you also gain confidence in your driving ability. You learn the limits of your car’s brakes, you learn the correct seating, hand and feet positions.

And of course you learn the limits of your car’s, tire adhesion and do donuts. And on top of all that, autocross is a social gathering of new and old friends. And it’s a heck of a lot of fun if you couldn’t tell from all the stories that we shared on this episode. Sure. And then, you know, the, one of the events that I was going to was a two day event, you know, and it’s like car classing and all that stuff.

For the longest time I thought Cam was, who knew how to barbecue and tell the best lies, right? Because you’d hurry up, get the [01:33:00] racing over with, and then the know the barbecue grills would come out and the bench racing. And you know, even here when we’re at Summit Point, I’ll throw out the barbecue grill, you know, at lunchtime.

And even if you’re just throwing hot dogs on, you say, Hey, did you have anything to eat? Here’s a wiener and you know, what car are you in? And so comradery definitely a part of anything car related. Right? Yeah. Does not just show up, do your thing, and leave. There’s a lot more, some of my best friends in California are my car racing buddies.

Right. My autocross buddies. Right. I still absolutely keep in touch with those, you know. They, they still know that I burn the food, so they’re gonna run the barbecue, right? I, I’ll say, uh, you know, it’s a great bunch of folks. My car, I was headed for, uh, nationals this year, but my car blew up on the Dino. My good friend Eric Anderson from up in Knoxville, Tennessee called me up and offered me a co drive and it’s 400 horsepower SS Ada.

Which was a lot of fun. I, uh, was the tire warmer. Eric did win his class, and, [01:34:00] uh, his usual co-driver, uh, Randall Wilcox won the, uh, XP class in that car as well. So that was a nice gesture on his part and I, uh, really appreciated him, uh, doing that. I was gonna be sitting at home with one for that. So, to learn more about autocross, be sure to check out our website, gt motorsports.org, and search autocross or check out the show notes for links to additional tutorials and more things you can learn about this sport, even if you’re a veteran.

Maybe some top tips in there that you weren’t aware of, but you can also hop over to the Gospel of all things autocross scca.com and learn about Autocross Track Cross and Pro Solo, as well as reviewing all of their comprehensive rules about these disciplines of motorsport. And more importantly, if you wanna follow Tom and his progress, you can follow him on The Little Ray Shop of Horrors on YouTube.

And Todd Sabertooth, goat Tiger. Uh, just about everything. [01:35:00] Instagram. Facebook. Instagram. Yeah. Gmail, Facebook. Well, guys, this has been a ton of fun. I really do appreciate you guys coming on the show and being able to share your passion and your stories about autocross and hopefully reaching out to some folks that might be on the fence about coming to their first event or reinvigorating folks for next season as we’re all turning wrenches here in the winter, getting ready for the 2022 Art cross season.

Well, gentlemen, I, again, I can’t thank you enough for coming on the show. This has been an absolutely blast and a lot of fun. So we look forward to seeing you both next season out on track somewhere, or maybe on a subsequent break fix episode. Absolutely, thanks.

That’s right listeners. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our Patreon for a follow on pit stop mini episode. So check that out on [01:36:00] www.patreon.com/gt motorsports and get access to all sorts of behind the scenes content from this episode and more. If you like what you’ve heard and want to learn more about gtm, be sure to check us out on www.gt motorsports.org.

You can also find us on Instagram at Grand Tour Motorsports. Also, if you want to get involved or have suggestions for future shows, you can call or text us at (202) 630-1770 or send us an email at crew chief gt motorsports.org. We’d love to hear from you. Hey everybody, crew Chief Eric here. We really hope you enjoyed this episode of Break Fix, and we wanted to remind you that G T M remains a no annual fees organization, and our goal is to continue to bring you quality episodes like this one at no charge.

As a loyal listener, please consider subscribing to our Patreon for bonus and behind the scenes content, extra goodies and GTM swag. For as little as $2 and 50 cents a month, you can keep our [01:37:00] developers, writers, editors, casters, and other volunteers fed on their strict diet of fig Newton’s, gummy bears, and Monster.

Consider signing up for Patreon today at www.patreon.com/gt motorsports. And remember, without fans, supporters, and members like you, none of this would be possible.